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> Since US states, just like Britain in the EU, participate in the larger governing body through representatives? Not quite. For the US federal government, you

by maratd 10y ago

> Since US states, just like Britain in the EU, participate in the larger governing body through representatives? Not quite. For the US federal government, you get to vote for 2 senators, a number of congressmen, and the president. You get to vote for zero in the EU.

arrrg 10y ago
Members of parliament? Plus, commissioners are appointed by the member state governments, so indirectly you can vote for those, too. There are no kings or queens running the EU, nor do people just randomly show up and get power. Everyone who has power is either elected or was appointed by someone who was elected.
gnaritas 10y ago
> Not quite. For the US federal government, you get to vote for 2 senators, a number of congressmen, and the president. Senators used to be picked by the state congress and presidents are elected via the electoral college, not the popular vote, so when the US was founded and for much of its history, the people's voice was solely from the house of representatives which was the original intention of the founders. Like the US, the EU will evolve, but like the original US, the EU members are elected by the people's representatives, which is hardly no control or will of the people.
- maratd 10y ago
  > when the US was founded and for much of its history When the US was founded and for much of its history, women couldn't vote. And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. You judge a political entity by its current state. They can vote now. And now, you elect your Senators directly. You also elect your President directly, albeit within the confines of your state. > Like the US, the EU will evolve I disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. > the EU members are elected by the people's representatives, which is hardly no control or will of the people. Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. Nobody is screaming dictatorship here, but it really isn't the same thing.
  - gnaritas 10y ago
    > And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. It was relevant to the next point made (not the founders intentions), that everything evolves even the U.S. > disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. It will, because nothing stays static, every generation has their own views about issues and all societies continually evolve, so yes, there is a guarantee of this. > Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. They're effectively the same thing and it's what elected representatives are for. You can't claim you don't have a say in the people selected when you elect the selectors.
    - maratd 10y ago
      > It will, because nothing stays static I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. > They're effectively the same thing Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message.
      - gnaritas 10y ago
        > I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. Things don't always anything, but history shows over time societies are in general getting better and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the EU will as well. > Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message. One layer, i.e. representatives, is standard fair for how most governments operate and no one complains they don't have any representation. It's unrealistic to accept only direct democracy as meaningful.
scribu 10y ago
> You get to vote for zero in the EU. The European Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens, with the UK getting 73 seats. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
- maratd 10y ago
  I'll revise my previous statement to "You get to vote for 1/3 in the EU." I will note that this legislative body has no capacity to actually introduce legislation, as noted in the very article you quoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislative_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislativ...
  - tremon 10y ago
    Make that 2/3 please. I assume that with your 1/3 you are referring to the European Parliament, and the other two you are considering are the European Commission and the Council of the EU, right? But the latter is chosen directly, because it is composed of the ministers of the respective member states. So of the three, only the Commission is appointed instead of elected.
    - maratd 10y ago
      If you really want to quibble about the fraction, I can revise it to 2/7. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European... Of those, only the parliament is directly elected. The council consists of elected officials who are automatically appointed and the presidency rotates. While that isn't necessarily a bad scheme, it isn't exactly democratic ... more like sequential?
      - tremon 10y ago
        Nope, still wrong. If you want to count all the institutions, it is 3/7: the European Parliament, the European Council, and the Council of the EU. And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected.

by maratd 10y ago

arrrg 10y ago

Members of parliament? Plus, commissioners are appointed by the member state governments, so indirectly you can vote for those, too. There are no kings or queens running the EU, nor do people just randomly show up and get power. Everyone who has power is either elected or was appointed by someone who was elected.

gnaritas 10y ago

> Not quite. For the US federal government, you get to vote for 2 senators, a number of congressmen, and the president. Senators used to be picked by the state congress and presidents are elected via the electoral college, not the popular vote, so when the US was founded and for much of its history, the people's voice was solely from the house of representatives which was the original intention of the founders. Like the US, the EU will evolve, but like the original US, the EU members are elected by the people's representatives, which is hardly no control or will of the people.

maratd 10y ago
> when the US was founded and for much of its history When the US was founded and for much of its history, women couldn't vote. And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. You judge a political entity by its current state. They can vote now. And now, you elect your Senators directly. You also elect your President directly, albeit within the confines of your state. > Like the US, the EU will evolve I disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. > the EU members are elected by the people's representatives, which is hardly no control or will of the people. Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. Nobody is screaming dictatorship here, but it really isn't the same thing.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  > And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. It was relevant to the next point made (not the founders intentions), that everything evolves even the U.S. > disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. It will, because nothing stays static, every generation has their own views about issues and all societies continually evolve, so yes, there is a guarantee of this. > Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. They're effectively the same thing and it's what elected representatives are for. You can't claim you don't have a say in the people selected when you elect the selectors.
  - maratd 10y ago
    > It will, because nothing stays static I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. > They're effectively the same thing Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message.
    - gnaritas 10y ago
      > I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. Things don't always anything, but history shows over time societies are in general getting better and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the EU will as well. > Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message. One layer, i.e. representatives, is standard fair for how most governments operate and no one complains they don't have any representation. It's unrealistic to accept only direct democracy as meaningful.

scribu 10y ago

> You get to vote for zero in the EU. The European Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens, with the UK getting 73 seats. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

maratd 10y ago
I'll revise my previous statement to "You get to vote for 1/3 in the EU." I will note that this legislative body has no capacity to actually introduce legislation, as noted in the very article you quoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislative_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislativ...
- tremon 10y ago
  Make that 2/3 please. I assume that with your 1/3 you are referring to the European Parliament, and the other two you are considering are the European Commission and the Council of the EU, right? But the latter is chosen directly, because it is composed of the ministers of the respective member states. So of the three, only the Commission is appointed instead of elected.
  - maratd 10y ago
    If you really want to quibble about the fraction, I can revise it to 2/7. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European... Of those, only the parliament is directly elected. The council consists of elected officials who are automatically appointed and the presidency rotates. While that isn't necessarily a bad scheme, it isn't exactly democratic ... more like sequential?
    - tremon 10y ago
      Nope, still wrong. If you want to count all the institutions, it is 3/7: the European Parliament, the European Council, and the Council of the EU. And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected.