8 ms·

Part of the problem is "vote leave" became "vote leave because racist" so most of the vote leavers have kept quiet. There is a whole bunch of reasons to vote l

Part of the problem is "vote leave" became "vote leave because racist" so most of the vote leavers have kept quiet. There is a whole bunch of reasons to vote leave and the debates for the last 6 months have been very informative. These, you missed. But radio 4 had debates most days from smart people on both sides. Older people listen to the radio and watch debates on the TV. I was often surprised that the 'vote remain' people often couldn't answer simple questions. The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) how do you plan for schools, hospitals, teachers, nurses. So you hear from teachers, day after day on the radio with these arguments and it becomes easy to vote out. Then you have the popular radio 1 and other 'younger generation' tv shows, twitter, facebook, reddit etc that are posing the debate in a different light. Farage is an idiot (true.) Immigration is good, the EU is great and has done so much for us, we can fix the broken bits. Then it's much better to vote in. A lot of people who voted remain did so because they were terrified that if the Tories had more power they would strip workers of their rights, decimate the NHS, privatise schools, etc etc (a lot of these things have nothing to do with the EU - sigh) so they voted in because they fear our own government! Other people voted out because they hate our government - a sort of protest vote. It's been a crazy time.

objclxt 10y ago
> The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) It's not "uncontrolled immigration" - an American reading this can't just turn up in the UK and start living and working there. It's free movement of labour between EU member states. The irony, which politicians who were pro-leave are starting to hint at, is that even having left the UK will have to agree to free movement in order to have access to the EU market. People who voted leave because they were angry about internal EU migration are going to be disappointed.
- esgoto 10y ago
  >It's free movement of labour between EU member states. That distinction is kind of meaningless when thousands of people can enter several EU member states pretty much unregulated, then disappear under the radar and go anywhere within the EU.
  - jaimebuelta 10y ago
    UK is NOT a Schengen country. There's a border under British control. That may be possible in, let's say, Belgium. Someone enters through the Italian border, somehow tricks the border patrol, and then can go with no problem from Italy to Belgium. That's not the case for UK. On enter, you need to cross a border with officers, customs, etc. You can't even cross the border unnoticed through Ireland, as Ireland is also not a Schengen country (there's no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, though there are sometimes checks from Police in buses and so on). There's a border also in Gibraltar... The Brexit campaign was mainly complaining about workers from Eastern Countries like Poland or Romania, where they have the legal right to move and work in the UK, due EU accords. Plus fear that Turkey may enter in the future.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    So why were all those migrants camped in Calais, and why are smugglers transporting them clandestinely?
    - undersuit 10y ago
      If there are already smugglers transporting migrants... what has leaving the EU accomplished?
- dng88 10y ago
  That is uncontrolled. How many European can come? Btw the discussion here is better whilst the article is total rubbish. Have studied this kind of paper for 4 decades now. Recycled rubbish. Loop. Not even consistent. Anyway. Whatever uker has to fight on. Just bought a house and have to fight together.
- moogly 10y ago
  >It's free movement of labour between EU member states I am certain that even the most compassionate proponent of diversity would find it difficult to call the tens of thousands (?) of individuals from Roma populations in for example Romania and Bulgaria who have arrived throughout West and Northern Europe the past couple of years in any way, shape or form, "labour" ("homeless" is more accurate). I don't blame these people; I blame the governments of Romania and Bulgaria who abandoned these people, thought of them as a "problem" and decided to punt that "problem" over to other member states.
- MaysonL 10y ago
  And of course, "uncontrolled immigration" also implies "uncontrolled emigration". There are quite a few British expats in the rest of Europe who may find their new work permit status uncertain. (And who found it difficult to vote in the referendum).
Normal_gaussian 10y ago
I am British, and I socialise with a whole host of young Brits who voted leave. A whole host of educated Engineers - software, civil, mech. A handful of NQT's, nurses, vets, doctors, and then a spattering of assorted jobs at large companies from banks to telecoms to charities to sales. These are people I talk to one on one about all kinds of different issues - mostly philisophocal, rarely political - and they all had a few small things in common with the EU debate: * a certainty that the UK is dying. There is less and less value here, and continuing with the current setup spells for a long slow death. * an outright distrust of the political class and the media class. Most can cite cases where they have been outright knowingly lied to in ways most wouldn't realise. * a feeling of betrayal by those screaming remain and insulting anyone who disagrees. These are people who were often close friends who just weren't the kind to get into the discussions we enjoyed. So the obvious thing for these people to do? Vote leave. We can start the fight now and possibly survive, or delay it and definitely die. Why didn't they talk about it? They did. Just in places where there is no audience, only participants.
- theoh 10y ago
  Social capital is a form of intangible value, as is cultural capital. The "technical middle class" (not my terminology) in the UK is usually described as relatively lacking both of these things for a group of its economic status: "Members of the class report the lowest number of social contacts of any of the classes, though these do tend to be high status, probably mostly other professional experts. It is relatively culturally disengaged with both highbrow and emerging culture." (Wikipedia) From what you say I'm guessing you don't see the service sector as a viable form of "value" in the UK's economy, and maybe you also don't think of culture (creativity in the arts, or heritage and museums) as a form of renewable and intangible value? Whether that can support the UK entirely is another matter. It's also a matter of socialization in the sociological sense. This is a fascinating concept for the slightly alienated among us to consider(!), even if you disregard what sociologists do with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
Retric 10y ago
The US little less than half the population of the EU and people can move anywhere at any time. Yet, 99% of the time it does not actually cause real issues with school planning. So, I have trouble thinking this is your real issue?
- jonnathanson 10y ago
  In the US, we blame Mexican immigrants for school planning problems, language integration issues, etc. In the UK, they blame a variety of multilingual immigrants: immigrants from Poland to Pakistan. We use strikingly similar scapegoating techniques in our political rhetoric.
- kaspar_houser 10y ago
  Just a thought experiment. Imagine a world, where everyone can move anywhere in the world. What do you think it would happen ? Don't you think, that people in less prosperous countries would move to more richer countries. And what would that lead to, do you think people from richer countries wouldn't feel the hard impact on their economy ? My point is this. In the USA, there are less cultural and economic differences between the states, so there won't be as many mass immigrations from one state to another. Now think about if USA decided over night, that it would open it's southern borders to all of South America, I think we all know what would happen. And the same thing could happen in EU, because you get to huge cultural and economic differences on the borders of EU. Just think about Turkey and negotiations (their demands) to become part of EU. That would be a total disaster. What good is EU or USA, if it can't keep ILLEGAL immigrants away ?
  - devdas 10y ago
    And then those people would repatriate funds, raising the quality of life in poorer countries and reducing the need to emigrate. Labour is a tradable good, and as such the labour market must be an open as for any other goods (or services).
  - Retric 10y ago
    ~3.5% of the US population is Illigal immigrants. If they want to come here they have. In fact over the last five years more people have moved from US to Mexico than Mexico to the US. It's not really an issue because our 11 million illegal immigrants don't just desired to move to Montana they do what other people do and arrive in waves. Only issue US has with internal migration has to do with Job openings which are fairly easily to predict if hard to deal with. EX: Boom towns from fracking.

objclxt 10y ago

> The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) It's not "uncontrolled immigration" - an American reading this can't just turn up in the UK and start living and working there. It's free movement of labour between EU member states. The irony, which politicians who were pro-leave are starting to hint at, is that even having left the UK will have to agree to free movement in order to have access to the EU market. People who voted leave because they were angry about internal EU migration are going to be disappointed.

esgoto 10y ago
>It's free movement of labour between EU member states. That distinction is kind of meaningless when thousands of people can enter several EU member states pretty much unregulated, then disappear under the radar and go anywhere within the EU.
- jaimebuelta 10y ago
  UK is NOT a Schengen country. There's a border under British control. That may be possible in, let's say, Belgium. Someone enters through the Italian border, somehow tricks the border patrol, and then can go with no problem from Italy to Belgium. That's not the case for UK. On enter, you need to cross a border with officers, customs, etc. You can't even cross the border unnoticed through Ireland, as Ireland is also not a Schengen country (there's no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, though there are sometimes checks from Police in buses and so on). There's a border also in Gibraltar... The Brexit campaign was mainly complaining about workers from Eastern Countries like Poland or Romania, where they have the legal right to move and work in the UK, due EU accords. Plus fear that Turkey may enter in the future.
- icebraining 10y ago
  So why were all those migrants camped in Calais, and why are smugglers transporting them clandestinely?
  - undersuit 10y ago
    If there are already smugglers transporting migrants... what has leaving the EU accomplished?
dng88 10y ago
That is uncontrolled. How many European can come? Btw the discussion here is better whilst the article is total rubbish. Have studied this kind of paper for 4 decades now. Recycled rubbish. Loop. Not even consistent. Anyway. Whatever uker has to fight on. Just bought a house and have to fight together.
moogly 10y ago
>It's free movement of labour between EU member states I am certain that even the most compassionate proponent of diversity would find it difficult to call the tens of thousands (?) of individuals from Roma populations in for example Romania and Bulgaria who have arrived throughout West and Northern Europe the past couple of years in any way, shape or form, "labour" ("homeless" is more accurate). I don't blame these people; I blame the governments of Romania and Bulgaria who abandoned these people, thought of them as a "problem" and decided to punt that "problem" over to other member states.
MaysonL 10y ago
And of course, "uncontrolled immigration" also implies "uncontrolled emigration". There are quite a few British expats in the rest of Europe who may find their new work permit status uncertain. (And who found it difficult to vote in the referendum).

Normal_gaussian 10y ago

I am British, and I socialise with a whole host of young Brits who voted leave. A whole host of educated Engineers - software, civil, mech. A handful of NQT's, nurses, vets, doctors, and then a spattering of assorted jobs at large companies from banks to telecoms to charities to sales. These are people I talk to one on one about all kinds of different issues - mostly philisophocal, rarely political - and they all had a few small things in common with the EU debate: * a certainty that the UK is dying. There is less and less value here, and continuing with the current setup spells for a long slow death. * an outright distrust of the political class and the media class. Most can cite cases where they have been outright knowingly lied to in ways most wouldn't realise. * a feeling of betrayal by those screaming remain and insulting anyone who disagrees. These are people who were often close friends who just weren't the kind to get into the discussions we enjoyed. So the obvious thing for these people to do? Vote leave. We can start the fight now and possibly survive, or delay it and definitely die. Why didn't they talk about it? They did. Just in places where there is no audience, only participants.

theoh 10y ago
Social capital is a form of intangible value, as is cultural capital. The "technical middle class" (not my terminology) in the UK is usually described as relatively lacking both of these things for a group of its economic status: "Members of the class report the lowest number of social contacts of any of the classes, though these do tend to be high status, probably mostly other professional experts. It is relatively culturally disengaged with both highbrow and emerging culture." (Wikipedia) From what you say I'm guessing you don't see the service sector as a viable form of "value" in the UK's economy, and maybe you also don't think of culture (creativity in the arts, or heritage and museums) as a form of renewable and intangible value? Whether that can support the UK entirely is another matter. It's also a matter of socialization in the sociological sense. This is a fascinating concept for the slightly alienated among us to consider(!), even if you disregard what sociologists do with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

The US little less than half the population of the EU and people can move anywhere at any time. Yet, 99% of the time it does not actually cause real issues with school planning. So, I have trouble thinking this is your real issue?

jonnathanson 10y ago
In the US, we blame Mexican immigrants for school planning problems, language integration issues, etc. In the UK, they blame a variety of multilingual immigrants: immigrants from Poland to Pakistan. We use strikingly similar scapegoating techniques in our political rhetoric.
kaspar_houser 10y ago
Just a thought experiment. Imagine a world, where everyone can move anywhere in the world. What do you think it would happen ? Don't you think, that people in less prosperous countries would move to more richer countries. And what would that lead to, do you think people from richer countries wouldn't feel the hard impact on their economy ? My point is this. In the USA, there are less cultural and economic differences between the states, so there won't be as many mass immigrations from one state to another. Now think about if USA decided over night, that it would open it's southern borders to all of South America, I think we all know what would happen. And the same thing could happen in EU, because you get to huge cultural and economic differences on the borders of EU. Just think about Turkey and negotiations (their demands) to become part of EU. That would be a total disaster. What good is EU or USA, if it can't keep ILLEGAL immigrants away ?
- devdas 10y ago
  And then those people would repatriate funds, raising the quality of life in poorer countries and reducing the need to emigrate. Labour is a tradable good, and as such the labour market must be an open as for any other goods (or services).
- Retric 10y ago
  ~3.5% of the US population is Illigal immigrants. If they want to come here they have. In fact over the last five years more people have moved from US to Mexico than Mexico to the US. It's not really an issue because our 11 million illegal immigrants don't just desired to move to Montana they do what other people do and arrive in waves. Only issue US has with internal migration has to do with Job openings which are fairly easily to predict if hard to deal with. EX: Boom towns from fracking.