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As someone with no horse in this race, I hadn't been following the debate leading up to the Brexit but I did see the aftermath on Twitter, FB, mainstream media,

As someone with no horse in this race, I hadn't been following the debate leading up to the Brexit but I did see the aftermath on Twitter, FB, mainstream media, etc. What I saw was really fascinating - an almost universal outpouring of scorn and derision for "Leave" voters: Ageism. Racism. Classism - "Only uneducated old, poor, white people voted to leave". It hit me then pretty hard just how much of a echo chamber places like Twitter, FB, and even the mainstream media now are and how poorly they sample and represent the views of everyone. Here was a democratically conducted vote for which >50% of a population voted "Leave", yet based on how one-sided the response has been you would think the votes must have been rigged. I deeply suspect as well that the one-sidedness of presentation in the MSM is a root contributor to the massive divide that drove the Brexit. What you have here is a failure of empathy - as the article touches on, "every smug, liberal, snobbish barb that Ian Hislop threw his way...was ensuring that revenge would be all the greater, once it arrived". Here are ridiculed and marginalised people showing you that while they lack representation in Twitter, MSM, etc, in a democracy their vote is just as powerful as yours. In some sense I actually find it quite a satisfying outcome when viewed in this lense. A simple analogy might be "A bullied child just threw a punch back at his bully even though he may have deep down known it'll get him in more trouble." And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Interesting comment. I can't join you in finding the outcome satisfying. But it certainly is a wake-up call to those of us terrified by the idea of a Trump presidency.
fleitz 10y ago
Couldn't agree more on the bullying aspect. That's what I love about Trump / Brexit, it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. It's also once of the best BATNAs to enter any negotiation with. Destroying the EU was such a better play than 'free college' or '$15/hr min wage', screw the table scraps go for the jugular, show them you aren't fucking around.
- kiba 10y ago
  Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.
  - fleitz 10y ago
    For sure, it's the tenacity that I love about it. If you're willing to reset to zero it's a lot more daunting for those with something to lose.
- VLM 10y ago
  > it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. Its the only punch thrown in at least two generations, maybe three. That's a large part of the shock. When the bullied strike back against the bully, the bully is utterly staggered not at the force of the blow but that they dared to fight for themselves at all. The crying I've seen was appropriate for a successful conclusion of operation sealion, not independence from an unelected foreign dictatorship and some international mega corporations.
  - fleitz 10y ago
    Yeah if you think about it a country or supernation breaking up without bloodshed is amazing.
    - VLM 10y ago
      Its undercovered because when it happens its uninteresting. The breakup of the Austrian and Ottoman empires in the early 1900s gets a lot of ink spilled. Or look at the dissolution of the concept of Iraq as a nation, currently. Most people forget the Soviet Union broke up in the 90s without a world war. Or the British Empire dissolved with relatively low levels of bloodshed (not zero, but not "that much" compared to WWI and its continuation as WWII). Also in binary world there are only extreme conditions and UK not being in the EU somehow magically requires a border wall and shoot to kill armed guards and extensive use of landmines and retarget all the UK nuclear arms to point at Brussels. Back to reality, the relationship will likely be as confrontational as USA-EU or maybe Switzerland-EU. Worst case maybe Turkey-EU. Or instead of comparing to EU, could compare to UK, and it'll be like Canadian-UK relations. As much as the pouters insist on being very loud incredibly sore anti-democratic losers, I'm not thinking anyone is going to send infantry brigades over anyone's border anytime soon in either direction.
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Avshalom 10y ago
So The Sun: Largest circulation of any paper in the UK... how is it not The Mainstream Media?
- mwfunk 10y ago
  Likewise, Fox News is the #1 cable network in America. The mainstream media liberal bias argument hasn't held water for a very long time now. If anything the tables have turned.
  - netheril96 10y ago
    Fox News were anti-Trump for a long time, just like its liberal counterpart. I don't know if it is still now.
    - protomyth 10y ago
      The morning show was and is pro-Trump plus Hanity is his big cheerleader in the night slots.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    One network versus the rest? That they are the highest rated probably should be analyzed versus the whole market. Apple having the best selling computer model didn't mean that OS X was the best selling OS (far from it).
  - rogerdpack 10y ago
    Yes but it's kind of like "Fox News" versus most of the other ones. At least from my trivial purusual of them, many others lean the other direction, so the sum...
    - Avshalom 10y ago
      many others? There's two, and no one actually watches MSNBC. News Corp owns papers all across the US, and the left has basically ceded the entire AM radio spectrum to the right.
caio1982 10y ago
">50% of a population voted Leave" Well... >50% of those who turned out to vote (among those allowed to), not the population. Democratic, but not very representative. The people that stayed home surely will think twice next time.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Plus there's this: It is now being reported that many Leave voters are aghast at what they’ve done, as if they never really intended for their actions to yield results.
- nine_k 10y ago
  > 50% of those who cared? Sounds just to me.
- mc32 10y ago
  Sure, but it would have been true if the votes had been reversed. So, I think people understand the unstated bias. Remain was the "correct" vote and the leave, were therefore in the wrong, according to this bias.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  That was a larger turnout than for any general election since 1992. If this result isn't valid, then the UK hasn't been a functioning democracy for 25 years.
golemotron 10y ago
The question is why those views of more than 50% of the population do not have airing in MSM or on social media. There's an argument that consolidated ownership of MSM is the culprit, but the latent issue might be that in the aftermath of the 20th century one can not take the high ground with the idea of national interest or sovereignty, particularly in Europe. We have a sense that we should be moving beyond that.
- Avshalom 10y ago
  THEY DO. THE SUN WAS PRO-LEAVE. THE SUN IS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.
  - golemotron 10y ago
    Apologies. I was projecting the US situation onto the UK. It's hard to see a parallel to Leave in the US that would highlight what I see in US MSM. Trump comes to mind, but advocacy for him is further outside the US MSM Overton than Leave was for the UK.
nickbauman 10y ago
I upvoted you, but I'm terribly sad about the outcome of the vote. The OP pointed out that one of the constituencies, that of farmers with a lot of ties to EU farm subsidies, voted LEAVE because "handouts don't inspire gratitude" or some-such. What can we do, then, if we don't understand what can be done to "bring a population along" while we figure out where they fit into the economic picture? I'm sad to the point of wanting to tear my teeth out. My mother was born in Darmstadt 6 weeks before Hitler invaded Poland. The notion of a post WWII Pax-Europeana has always seemed provisional to me at best.
- golemotron 10y ago
  If it weren't so ironic to say "fighting the last war" I'd say it. After all, isn't that what the EU is doing? Essentially, that is the program. Nationalism was a disaster in 20th century Europe, but local interests will never disappear, and let's hope local culture never does either. Full unification would be boring and soul-less. The flip side of that coin is that when you have a variety of cultures maintaining their differences, it affects trade and all economic activity. The history of the use of the 'commerce clause' in the US is a good example. It was the "go to" law whenever the federal government wanted to control the states. The EU has tried too hard and created the inevitable backlash. Can we have nation-states in loose affiliation without the goal of entwining them ever deeper? That may be the thing that some people are scared of the most.
monk_e_boy 10y ago
Part of the problem is "vote leave" became "vote leave because racist" so most of the vote leavers have kept quiet. There is a whole bunch of reasons to vote leave and the debates for the last 6 months have been very informative. These, you missed. But radio 4 had debates most days from smart people on both sides. Older people listen to the radio and watch debates on the TV. I was often surprised that the 'vote remain' people often couldn't answer simple questions. The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) how do you plan for schools, hospitals, teachers, nurses. So you hear from teachers, day after day on the radio with these arguments and it becomes easy to vote out. Then you have the popular radio 1 and other 'younger generation' tv shows, twitter, facebook, reddit etc that are posing the debate in a different light. Farage is an idiot (true.) Immigration is good, the EU is great and has done so much for us, we can fix the broken bits. Then it's much better to vote in. A lot of people who voted remain did so because they were terrified that if the Tories had more power they would strip workers of their rights, decimate the NHS, privatise schools, etc etc (a lot of these things have nothing to do with the EU - sigh) so they voted in because they fear our own government! Other people voted out because they hate our government - a sort of protest vote. It's been a crazy time.
- objclxt 10y ago
  > The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) It's not "uncontrolled immigration" - an American reading this can't just turn up in the UK and start living and working there. It's free movement of labour between EU member states. The irony, which politicians who were pro-leave are starting to hint at, is that even having left the UK will have to agree to free movement in order to have access to the EU market. People who voted leave because they were angry about internal EU migration are going to be disappointed.
  - esgoto 10y ago
    >It's free movement of labour between EU member states. That distinction is kind of meaningless when thousands of people can enter several EU member states pretty much unregulated, then disappear under the radar and go anywhere within the EU.
throwaway_73 10y ago
I agree. There is no empathy towards people who have their jobs out-sourced and need to compete with low-cost immigrant labor. The elite left-wing opinion likes to virtue-signal about income inequality, but there's an easy solution --cut immigration rates. If you reduce the supply of labor, the working class will see its wages increases. This is Economics 101, and the unwillingness of the elites to reduce immigration rates is what drives both Trump and Brexit. Frankly, I'm voting for Trump because the working class desperately needs a pay raise or I'm afraid we'll eventually have a revolution. Moreover, I think the income inequality is what's driving our general economic malaise. We need to improve the job prospects of the working class for everybody's good. I'm using a throwaway because arguing against immigration is automatically considered rascist and verboten among the elite.
- aethr 10y ago
  You think that Donald Trump, the very definition of wealthy elite, is seriously going to do anything to fix income inequality? As a business owner, having access to cheaper labor is absolutely in his best interests. Any policy he backs on immigration is guaranteed NOT to be based on the economic best interests of the working class.
  - MajorLOL 10y ago
    >As a business owner, having access to cheaper labor is absolutely in his best interests As a business owner, having a thriving, growing economy is absolutely more important than cheaper labor. So many intelligent people on this website but I see so many fall into strange logical contradictions like this. How do you come to the conclusion that all wealthy elite cannot care to help repair income inequality? Do you stereotype 100% of wealthy people this way or only those you dislike, based on feelings?
    - aethr 10y ago
      No, I don't "stereotype 100% of wealthy people". I am talking about a single wealthy person, and I'm basing my opinion on his actions. He can and will say whatever he needs to say to get support. Looking at the history of his actions is a much better indicator towards what he will actually do.
Panoramix 10y ago
Note that you are generalizing based on what you observed on your particular social network. I find nothing satisfying in this by the way. The UK just burned billions without a valid reason for it. It's really parallel to Trump's campaign. He promises he'll make America great again, but has never bothered discussing HOW he proposes to achieve that. Similarly, the Brexit folk are in limbo at the moment, backtracking from some of the promises they made to the people - which of course they can't sustain. Guess what, UK was not in the Schengen to begin with, so they always were in control of their border. Oh wait, those immigrants we have are from former colonies, can't really blame that on Europe, can we? The money it costs to be part of the EU, guess what, is not a much as we stated before - and we'll need to pay a fee if we want to trade with the EU. The UK will never get a better trade with the EU - that would be delusional. I could ramble on...
- deleted 10y ago
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- nickbauman 10y ago
  Wow, thanks. I had NO idea about the Schengen region. This makes the LEAVE vote even more completely insane in my mind.
  - peterhunt 10y ago
    While they aren't part of Schengen, they are part of European Economic Area which requires free movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
    - kaspar_houser 10y ago
      Right on!
    - nazgob 10y ago
      Don't they intend to stay in there and have similar deal like Norway? Norway had to accept free movement.
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kiok 10y ago
Good comment. You have obviously put some thought into the matter. Any thoughts on what can be done about reducing those feelings of marginalization? The tech community does seem very disconnected from Average Joe these days.
stupidcar 10y ago
Something that perhaps hasn't been adequately explained is that much of the "mainstream media" in the UK was not pro-Remain. Although their sales are declining, daily newspapers remain a fixture of British political life. In particular, the Daily Mail and the Sun are extremely popular, with circulations over a million each[1]. And just a few years ago they sold vastly more copies than they currently do. The stock-in-trade of nearly all these newspapers is rightwing populism, and nearly all were stridently pro-Brexit. Long before this referendum, they sold copies by demonising immigrants and the EU, through hysterical, mendacious reporting. For decades, they have poured lies and poison into the hearts of a huge swathe of the British electorate. Their readership matches almost exactly with those who voted out: Old people, poor people, white people. A lot of pundits have spoken of Brexit as being about disenfranchised voters giving a bloody nose to the political establishment, or being fed-up with the runaway effects of austerity an globalisation. Yet when Brexit voters are asked why they voted the way they did, most don't talk about getting revenge on some abstract metropolitan political elite, defying the mainstream media, or even about their own relative poverty. Instead, they talk about immigration, and taking back power from Brussels. And that's basically all they talk about. On the liberal left, there has been an attempt to take these concerns at face value, talking about the potential negative effects of large scale immigration. But even this ignores an important fact: Many of the communities most opposed to the EU, and most concerned with immigration, have actually experienced almost none of it, and have in fact benefitted greatly from EU redistribution of funds from richer parts of the UK to them, via redevelopment funds. Personally, I don't believe in explanations about resentment at those providing handouts. I think it comes down to certain rightwing narratives, about immigrants, and about the EU, being printed and reprinted by the mainstream, rightwing media for so many years that they have become articles of faith amongst large parts of the British population. They have taken on a life of their own, nowadays spread via social media, and are essentially immovable. Frankly, the biggest surprise of Brexit to me is that anybody would be surprised. Anti-EU and anti-immigrant reporting has been such a pervasive part of the British political landscape for so long that it would be an astonishing repudiation of media influence if people hadn't voted out. But, as it was, they did. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_Unit...
- 10y ago
arrrg 10y ago
Do you really think it's possible to bully white people (as a function of their whiteness and in the UK)?! I have no doubt that you can bully people who happen to be white (I'm white and I was bullied), but that's not the same. To class this as racism seems on its face ridiculous.
- noobermin 10y ago
  I don't think he was insinuating racism. Instead, he is remarking on what he sees in social media, as people blaming this specifically on "old whites".
  - objclxt 10y ago
    I think on a purely statistical level this is somewhat true, certainly the polling suggests it. However, millennials should really be just as mad - if not more so - at themselves for either a) not voting (under 30 turnout being much lower than over 50), or b) not taking it seriously (it's becoming clear some people voted "leave" because they didn't seriously think it was a viable outcome and wanted to just register their dissatisfaction with the government).
    - mikekchar 10y ago
      The polling also seemed to suggest that remain would have a comfortable victory. What people are not doing is tracing the source of the statistics. They lead to pro-remain lobbyists. I don't know if the statistics are correct or not, but what I can tell you is that I see absolutely no mention of statistical methods in the various graphs reported in the media. What I've learned: If I ever need a lobbyist, I'm hiring these guys - https://infacts.org/ https://infacts.org/ (In case you are wonder, they are the source of all those wonderful graphs you've seen in the newspapers on the demographics of voters)
      - noobermin 10y ago
        So I've heard something similar before...wouldn't showing remain winning make remain voters complacent and less likely to vote?
broodbucket 10y ago
People would be better able to see it coming if they didn't choose to ignore it. Twitter is very quick to remove pro-Trump hashtag from trends and autocomplete, Facebook has a huge, well documented history of censoring conservatives. On places like Reddit, admitting you are a Trump or Brexit supporter provokes no political discussion, but immediate insults of being a racist, or sexist, or a bigot, or xenophobic. Why bother engaging if you're just going to get yelled at? Social media is becoming so much of a "safe space" that having a place to freely express ideas has become a liberal echo chamber, which is great for people who want to feel like they're always right, but the same people then blame things like Brexit on those old, white racists. They would've seen it coming if they had ever dared to listen.
- ctrlalt_g 10y ago
  It caught me by surprise the other day to learn about this. It's not just Twitter and Reddit and Facebook. It's also college campuses and public events, and weird unexpected places like public radio (Planet Money, I think, or Freakonomics. I can't remember which). It's made me question my political loyalties.
  - broodbucket 10y ago
    Personally, it's swung me from the left to the center. I never thought the left would be the ones censoring and controlling speech.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      > I never thought the left would be the ones censoring and controlling speech. The old Soviet Union was infamous for pervasive censorship.
      - tomp 10y ago
        It's not fair to compare the democratic left with the autocratic communist movements, just as it's unfair to compare the democratic right with autocratic nazist/fascist movements.
mwfunk 10y ago
The outpouring of hatred I see dumped on Trump and Trump supporters almost entirely seems to be a reaction against the outpouring of hatred coming from Trump and Trump supporters, coupled with genuine fear about what might happen if he wins the election. His opponents and the media have in general treated him with vastly more respect than he has given any of them.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I really don't like Trump (yeah, I'm bitter), but "the outpouring of hatred coming from Trump and Trump supporters" is really not the case. There are a lot more supporters getting their butts kicked than doing the kicking (still happens). It just isn't reported like that. Its amazing to watch twitter (don't use the hash tags, they don't seem to show) and see what people say.
Amezarak 10y ago
> And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people. I am skeptical of Trump's general election chances. His polling was reasonably accurate throughout the primary campaign season and I'm not sure voters in the general election will be more likely to hide their support of Trump than voters in the primary elections. But you are absolutely right about the contempt poured on the classes that will vote for Trump. And you can see the extent to which that hatred and contempt has completely permeated the establishment, the media culture, and the sunny sides of the Internet - look at how many people on HN comment about how they are 'terrified' of Trump, or that he has no policy ideas other than Make America Great Again. Look, I can absolutely, one-hundred-percent get behind not supporting Trump and not voting for Trump. But dig down deep: what terrifies you about Trump? He doesn't drink coffee or alcohol, he doesn't appear to have any mental issues, he doesn't have any kind of loose cannon reputation in his business dealings. And he's 70 years old, he's not going to change. And if you're cynical of Trump, you can definitely say that Trump is all about Trump. He builds all these big buildings and casinos and puts his name on them. Clearly, he cares about his legacy. He might have awful, awful policy ideas, but he's not stupid: he's not going to act against his own self-interest (to make his mark) and he's going to be limited by the power of the office of the Presidency. There would be reason to be discouraged if Trump won the election; there would be reason to prepare to do battle on many policy fronts, if Congress somehow isn't totally anti-Trump. But terrified? Why? The fundamental reason is that Trump represents the same type of people in America that Brexit represented in the UK. You could group voters in America into two different classes: the traditionalists and the cosmopolitans. The latter group are more likely to be university educated. They're more likely to be immigrants. They're more likely to participate in online discussions. They have experience with people from all around the world. They dominate the media and the political establishment. America is little more to them than a patch of ground with a Constitution. You and I are probably cosmopolitans, and we pretty much rule the western world. And we live in a bubble. The former group are usually older. They are often less educated. They and their families have lived in America for a hundred years, or even longer. Their America is more than a patch of land with a Constitution. It's a home, it has a shared culture, it has an official language, and they are proud of who they are and they love their culture. They know it wasn't that long ago the US was more than 90% white and the rest of it black. The same goes for the UK, except you have people whose ancestors have lived there for a thousand years or more. The new cosmopolitan, globalist economy has left them behind. They subsist on what little work they can find and often various forms of welfare. Cosmopolitans celebrate multicultural London, where white British are now a minority. Traditionalists feel a vague sense of despair that their country has been taken from them without a fight, their culture extinguished one little bit at a time as the cosmopolitans tell them that this is how it's going to be, and they had better get out of the way or be called racists. Traditionalists want to know why it's so important to have a cosmopolitan London rather than an English London. I live in Mississippi, which voted for Trump overwhelmingly. I'm an extreme edge case - I think based on the election results and exit polling, there were maybe five other white Obama voters in my county. Make no mistake, these people don't vote Republican because they think that Republicans have their back. They vote Republican because they feel that liberals in general have nothing more than sneering contempt for them as backwards hicks. They know perfectly well that Republicans are pro-business, not pro-traditionalist - thus why you see the Republican establishment in panic and revolt over Trump. Trump is a godsend to them. I don't think they believe that Trump will fulfill all his promises. They think they can't return to a pre-globalist world. What they hope is that he will be able to fuck the establishment cosmopolitans. They talk about Trump getting into the White House and finding out "what's going on" and sending half the government packing and the other half to prison. They voted Trump because they wanted to hear "you're fired!" When you start looking for the contempt, you see it everywhere. For example, look at all the hand wringing about how Trump voters are white men - they must be racist, voting for their perceived self-interest. Yet when blacks voted overwhelmingly for Obama, voting for their perceived self-interest, it was noted, it is used as an election strategy, but there weren't thousands of news articles condemning them for being racist. (Except in niche conservative outlets that nobody cares about.) There are unbelievable amounts of contempt and hate poured on these people. It is not that their views are to be disbelieved, or refuted, or argued with: they are to be ignored, unspeakable, considered stupid, called racist. They are not even worth mentioning or talking about if you can get away with it, unless it's to make them a butt of a joke or to generate clicks for outrage. I think Clinton will likely win, but the split between the traditionalists and the cosmopolitians will only grow worse. Maybe we can age out of it - I think the Internet has been a great cosmpolitian-izing force, whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing. If not, I'm afraid it will come to a worse head than Trump somewhere down the line. NB: I do see some value in the traditionalist worldview. I don't think free trade has been the savior I thought it would be. I'm not convinced the idea that people should uproot themselves and follow the jobs around is a great idea. And I suspect the big push for immigration has a lot more with benefiting big businesses by increasing the supply of labor than it does noble ideals about freedom of movement.
jonnathanson 10y ago
"And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people." I don't know if the scorn heaped upon Trump voters created their marginalized condition or feelings, so much as it amplified and emotionally validated those feelings. Trump's supporters have been economically marginalized for 30 years and running, as have the equivalent Leave voters in the UK. Media polarization has contributed to an increasingly wide cultural gap, as well. And now, our obvious scorn and contempt for these people aggravates their feelings of marginalization; it confirms to them that that we, the system's apparent winners, don't have their interests in mind.
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Brakenshire 10y ago
> I deeply suspect as well that the one-sidedness of presentation in the MSM Are you implying the 'mainstream media' was overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU? That is very wrong. These are some headlines from The Sun and The Daily Mail (which are by far the two largest newspapers in the country) from the ten day period running up to the vote: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cln4QsSWgAA228h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cln4QsSWgAA228h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllrH-9WQAANAeT.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllrH-9WQAANAeT.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJgCXwWEAQLtRf.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJgCXwWEAQLtRf.jpg http://cdn.thejournal.ie/embeds/twitter/f27fd2d833060ed084e8d3d3684e07cf.png http://cdn.thejournal.ie/embeds/twitter/f27fd2d833060ed084e8... http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/575e63391500002a0073a221.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5... http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClWAiflWYAAzWlE.jpg http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClWAiflWYAAzWlE.jpg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/576900b82200002d00f8215f.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/5... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgdZBtUYAQ9s7y.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgdZBtUYAQ9s7y.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck3LA0-WkAEI_On.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck3LA0-WkAEI_On.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgWY7GWQAQ0Wqp.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgWY7GWQAQ0Wqp.jpg http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/15/suns-brexit-boost-to-shares-front-page-is-a-topsy-turvy-take-on-the-truth#img-2 http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/15/suns-brexit-boo... http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/576900b82200002d00f8215f.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/5...
alistair77 10y ago
I understand your intent but please don't find this satisfying. Many who voted 'out' did so simply because they felt they had no other method of getting their voice heard. They used the referendum as a way to express their loss of faith in UK politics, answering a different question to the one asked. It's a complete failure of the democratic process. Regrettably, those same people will likely be by far the worst effected by the result.
tigershark 10y ago
You are thinking that you have no stakes in this race. I honestly think that you are wrong. And your rant about "bullied children" is just the proof you have no idea what you are speaking about. British people are living in a sovereign nation and they decided to leave a sovereign super-national entity. I live in UK since 2010 and I think I should express my opinion. People in Wales voted out even if their jobs are mostly paid by EU. Wales is by far the poorest part of uk and it's heavily subsidised. By EU. You can put as much rethoric as you want in your post but it doesn't change reality. The facts are that the pound crashed to 1.33 against the USD (last time it arrived to that level I was not even 5 years old, in 1985, and for sure didn't happen in one day). A lot of companies here are going to lay off/relocate jobs. Scotland is going to have a new referendum for independence, probably the same will happen to north Ireland and Gibraltar. Economy in Europe is completely messed up. Italy stock exchange had the worst crash EVER. Spain lost 12% and Greece 13%. In a single day. .SPX lost "only" 3.5% in a day. I know how much I contribute to uk economy (> 1 thousand of pounds of taxes per week) and a lot of my friends that are on a similar level are thinking to leave before end of the year. This referendum will trigger a global crisis, regardless of your belief to be safe and "out of the race". On a more personal level I'm really disgusted about British people. I wish I could be in some other country where they would rationally decide who they want instead of being in a nation that doesn't want immigrants at all. So I will let them be happy about their victory and as soon as I can I will move to somewhere else. I hope this comment can give you a better reality view from someone that lives there and has first hand experiences instead of relying on Twitter (that I don't even use) or all the other trendy social networks that you mentioned.
- smm2000 10y ago
  I am pretty sure British are OK with you (aka somebody paying 1K/week in taxes) staying in UK. At worst you will have to get work visa with minimal efforts no matter what. In contrast to US, UK has well functioning visa system for highly qualified workers Free movement of labour benefits workers in poor countries immigrating to UK and mostly affluent/rich UK citizens working in Europe. It's of no use to middle class and down - they are not moving anywhere. If EU stopped at free movement of stuff and did not do free movement of labor (beyond visa free travel), it would have been much better union. Blaming UK voters for Spanish stock exchange losses is just asinine - generally you should pay very little attention to daily stock market moves when decided policy for next 50 years. It's too finicky and move for no reason at all.
deleted 10y ago
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wr1472 10y ago
> Here was a democratically conducted vote for which >50% of a population voted "Leave". 50% of those who voted, not of the population. The turnout was ~70%; of that ~51% voted to leave. So for every 10 eligible voters, 7 bothered to turn up. Of those seven 3.5 voted to leave; 35% of the electorate voted leave unless my maths and assumptions are incorrect.
- ps4fanboy 10y ago
  You are making a baseless assumption the non voting 30% would vote differently
clockwerx 10y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jun/24/the-areas-and-demographics-where-the-brexit-vote-was-won http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jun/24/the-are...
chrismcb 10y ago
Except that >50% of the population did not vote to leave. >50% of the voters voted that way. Looks like the turnout was 72% or so, the claim is the turnout for the youngers was low.

ScottBurson 10y ago

Interesting comment. I can't join you in finding the outcome satisfying. But it certainly is a wake-up call to those of us terrified by the idea of a Trump presidency.

fleitz 10y ago

Couldn't agree more on the bullying aspect. That's what I love about Trump / Brexit, it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. It's also once of the best BATNAs to enter any negotiation with. Destroying the EU was such a better play than 'free college' or '$15/hr min wage', screw the table scraps go for the jugular, show them you aren't fucking around.

kiba 10y ago
Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.
- fleitz 10y ago
  For sure, it's the tenacity that I love about it. If you're willing to reset to zero it's a lot more daunting for those with something to lose.
VLM 10y ago
> it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. Its the only punch thrown in at least two generations, maybe three. That's a large part of the shock. When the bullied strike back against the bully, the bully is utterly staggered not at the force of the blow but that they dared to fight for themselves at all. The crying I've seen was appropriate for a successful conclusion of operation sealion, not independence from an unelected foreign dictatorship and some international mega corporations.
- fleitz 10y ago
  Yeah if you think about it a country or supernation breaking up without bloodshed is amazing.
  - VLM 10y ago
    Its undercovered because when it happens its uninteresting. The breakup of the Austrian and Ottoman empires in the early 1900s gets a lot of ink spilled. Or look at the dissolution of the concept of Iraq as a nation, currently. Most people forget the Soviet Union broke up in the 90s without a world war. Or the British Empire dissolved with relatively low levels of bloodshed (not zero, but not "that much" compared to WWI and its continuation as WWII). Also in binary world there are only extreme conditions and UK not being in the EU somehow magically requires a border wall and shoot to kill armed guards and extensive use of landmines and retarget all the UK nuclear arms to point at Brussels. Back to reality, the relationship will likely be as confrontational as USA-EU or maybe Switzerland-EU. Worst case maybe Turkey-EU. Or instead of comparing to EU, could compare to UK, and it'll be like Canadian-UK relations. As much as the pouters insist on being very loud incredibly sore anti-democratic losers, I'm not thinking anyone is going to send infantry brigades over anyone's border anytime soon in either direction.

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Avshalom 10y ago

So The Sun: Largest circulation of any paper in the UK... how is it not The Mainstream Media?

mwfunk 10y ago
Likewise, Fox News is the #1 cable network in America. The mainstream media liberal bias argument hasn't held water for a very long time now. If anything the tables have turned.
- netheril96 10y ago
  Fox News were anti-Trump for a long time, just like its liberal counterpart. I don't know if it is still now.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    The morning show was and is pro-Trump plus Hanity is his big cheerleader in the night slots.
- protomyth 10y ago
  One network versus the rest? That they are the highest rated probably should be analyzed versus the whole market. Apple having the best selling computer model didn't mean that OS X was the best selling OS (far from it).
- rogerdpack 10y ago
  Yes but it's kind of like "Fox News" versus most of the other ones. At least from my trivial purusual of them, many others lean the other direction, so the sum...
  - Avshalom 10y ago
    many others? There's two, and no one actually watches MSNBC. News Corp owns papers all across the US, and the left has basically ceded the entire AM radio spectrum to the right.

caio1982 10y ago

">50% of a population voted Leave" Well... >50% of those who turned out to vote (among those allowed to), not the population. Democratic, but not very representative. The people that stayed home surely will think twice next time.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Plus there's this: It is now being reported that many Leave voters are aghast at what they’ve done, as if they never really intended for their actions to yield results.
nine_k 10y ago
> 50% of those who cared? Sounds just to me.
mc32 10y ago
Sure, but it would have been true if the votes had been reversed. So, I think people understand the unstated bias. Remain was the "correct" vote and the leave, were therefore in the wrong, according to this bias.
pessimizer 10y ago
That was a larger turnout than for any general election since 1992. If this result isn't valid, then the UK hasn't been a functioning democracy for 25 years.

golemotron 10y ago

The question is why those views of more than 50% of the population do not have airing in MSM or on social media. There's an argument that consolidated ownership of MSM is the culprit, but the latent issue might be that in the aftermath of the 20th century one can not take the high ground with the idea of national interest or sovereignty, particularly in Europe. We have a sense that we should be moving beyond that.

Avshalom 10y ago
THEY DO. THE SUN WAS PRO-LEAVE. THE SUN IS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.
- golemotron 10y ago
  Apologies. I was projecting the US situation onto the UK. It's hard to see a parallel to Leave in the US that would highlight what I see in US MSM. Trump comes to mind, but advocacy for him is further outside the US MSM Overton than Leave was for the UK.

nickbauman 10y ago

I upvoted you, but I'm terribly sad about the outcome of the vote. The OP pointed out that one of the constituencies, that of farmers with a lot of ties to EU farm subsidies, voted LEAVE because "handouts don't inspire gratitude" or some-such. What can we do, then, if we don't understand what can be done to "bring a population along" while we figure out where they fit into the economic picture? I'm sad to the point of wanting to tear my teeth out. My mother was born in Darmstadt 6 weeks before Hitler invaded Poland. The notion of a post WWII Pax-Europeana has always seemed provisional to me at best.

golemotron 10y ago
If it weren't so ironic to say "fighting the last war" I'd say it. After all, isn't that what the EU is doing? Essentially, that is the program. Nationalism was a disaster in 20th century Europe, but local interests will never disappear, and let's hope local culture never does either. Full unification would be boring and soul-less. The flip side of that coin is that when you have a variety of cultures maintaining their differences, it affects trade and all economic activity. The history of the use of the 'commerce clause' in the US is a good example. It was the "go to" law whenever the federal government wanted to control the states. The EU has tried too hard and created the inevitable backlash. Can we have nation-states in loose affiliation without the goal of entwining them ever deeper? That may be the thing that some people are scared of the most.

monk_e_boy 10y ago

Part of the problem is "vote leave" became "vote leave because racist" so most of the vote leavers have kept quiet. There is a whole bunch of reasons to vote leave and the debates for the last 6 months have been very informative. These, you missed. But radio 4 had debates most days from smart people on both sides. Older people listen to the radio and watch debates on the TV. I was often surprised that the 'vote remain' people often couldn't answer simple questions. The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) how do you plan for schools, hospitals, teachers, nurses. So you hear from teachers, day after day on the radio with these arguments and it becomes easy to vote out. Then you have the popular radio 1 and other 'younger generation' tv shows, twitter, facebook, reddit etc that are posing the debate in a different light. Farage is an idiot (true.) Immigration is good, the EU is great and has done so much for us, we can fix the broken bits. Then it's much better to vote in. A lot of people who voted remain did so because they were terrified that if the Tories had more power they would strip workers of their rights, decimate the NHS, privatise schools, etc etc (a lot of these things have nothing to do with the EU - sigh) so they voted in because they fear our own government! Other people voted out because they hate our government - a sort of protest vote. It's been a crazy time.

objclxt 10y ago
> The biggest being with uncontrolled immigration (no possible way of capping a maximum) It's not "uncontrolled immigration" - an American reading this can't just turn up in the UK and start living and working there. It's free movement of labour between EU member states. The irony, which politicians who were pro-leave are starting to hint at, is that even having left the UK will have to agree to free movement in order to have access to the EU market. People who voted leave because they were angry about internal EU migration are going to be disappointed.
- esgoto 10y ago
  >It's free movement of labour between EU member states. That distinction is kind of meaningless when thousands of people can enter several EU member states pretty much unregulated, then disappear under the radar and go anywhere within the EU.

throwaway_73 10y ago

I agree. There is no empathy towards people who have their jobs out-sourced and need to compete with low-cost immigrant labor. The elite left-wing opinion likes to virtue-signal about income inequality, but there's an easy solution --cut immigration rates. If you reduce the supply of labor, the working class will see its wages increases. This is Economics 101, and the unwillingness of the elites to reduce immigration rates is what drives both Trump and Brexit. Frankly, I'm voting for Trump because the working class desperately needs a pay raise or I'm afraid we'll eventually have a revolution. Moreover, I think the income inequality is what's driving our general economic malaise. We need to improve the job prospects of the working class for everybody's good. I'm using a throwaway because arguing against immigration is automatically considered rascist and verboten among the elite.

aethr 10y ago
You think that Donald Trump, the very definition of wealthy elite, is seriously going to do anything to fix income inequality? As a business owner, having access to cheaper labor is absolutely in his best interests. Any policy he backs on immigration is guaranteed NOT to be based on the economic best interests of the working class.
- MajorLOL 10y ago
  >As a business owner, having access to cheaper labor is absolutely in his best interests As a business owner, having a thriving, growing economy is absolutely more important than cheaper labor. So many intelligent people on this website but I see so many fall into strange logical contradictions like this. How do you come to the conclusion that all wealthy elite cannot care to help repair income inequality? Do you stereotype 100% of wealthy people this way or only those you dislike, based on feelings?
  - aethr 10y ago
    No, I don't "stereotype 100% of wealthy people". I am talking about a single wealthy person, and I'm basing my opinion on his actions. He can and will say whatever he needs to say to get support. Looking at the history of his actions is a much better indicator towards what he will actually do.

Panoramix 10y ago

Note that you are generalizing based on what you observed on your particular social network. I find nothing satisfying in this by the way. The UK just burned billions without a valid reason for it. It's really parallel to Trump's campaign. He promises he'll make America great again, but has never bothered discussing HOW he proposes to achieve that. Similarly, the Brexit folk are in limbo at the moment, backtracking from some of the promises they made to the people - which of course they can't sustain. Guess what, UK was not in the Schengen to begin with, so they always were in control of their border. Oh wait, those immigrants we have are from former colonies, can't really blame that on Europe, can we? The money it costs to be part of the EU, guess what, is not a much as we stated before - and we'll need to pay a fee if we want to trade with the EU. The UK will never get a better trade with the EU - that would be delusional. I could ramble on...

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nickbauman 10y ago
Wow, thanks. I had NO idea about the Schengen region. This makes the LEAVE vote even more completely insane in my mind.
- peterhunt 10y ago
  While they aren't part of Schengen, they are part of European Economic Area which requires free movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
  - kaspar_houser 10y ago
    Right on!
  - nazgob 10y ago
    Don't they intend to stay in there and have similar deal like Norway? Norway had to accept free movement.

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kiok 10y ago

Good comment. You have obviously put some thought into the matter. Any thoughts on what can be done about reducing those feelings of marginalization? The tech community does seem very disconnected from Average Joe these days.

stupidcar 10y ago

Something that perhaps hasn't been adequately explained is that much of the "mainstream media" in the UK was not pro-Remain. Although their sales are declining, daily newspapers remain a fixture of British political life. In particular, the Daily Mail and the Sun are extremely popular, with circulations over a million each[1]. And just a few years ago they sold vastly more copies than they currently do. The stock-in-trade of nearly all these newspapers is rightwing populism, and nearly all were stridently pro-Brexit. Long before this referendum, they sold copies by demonising immigrants and the EU, through hysterical, mendacious reporting. For decades, they have poured lies and poison into the hearts of a huge swathe of the British electorate. Their readership matches almost exactly with those who voted out: Old people, poor people, white people. A lot of pundits have spoken of Brexit as being about disenfranchised voters giving a bloody nose to the political establishment, or being fed-up with the runaway effects of austerity an globalisation. Yet when Brexit voters are asked why they voted the way they did, most don't talk about getting revenge on some abstract metropolitan political elite, defying the mainstream media, or even about their own relative poverty. Instead, they talk about immigration, and taking back power from Brussels. And that's basically all they talk about. On the liberal left, there has been an attempt to take these concerns at face value, talking about the potential negative effects of large scale immigration. But even this ignores an important fact: Many of the communities most opposed to the EU, and most concerned with immigration, have actually experienced almost none of it, and have in fact benefitted greatly from EU redistribution of funds from richer parts of the UK to them, via redevelopment funds. Personally, I don't believe in explanations about resentment at those providing handouts. I think it comes down to certain rightwing narratives, about immigrants, and about the EU, being printed and reprinted by the mainstream, rightwing media for so many years that they have become articles of faith amongst large parts of the British population. They have taken on a life of their own, nowadays spread via social media, and are essentially immovable. Frankly, the biggest surprise of Brexit to me is that anybody would be surprised. Anti-EU and anti-immigrant reporting has been such a pervasive part of the British political landscape for so long that it would be an astonishing repudiation of media influence if people hadn't voted out. But, as it was, they did. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_Unit...

10y ago

arrrg 10y ago

Do you really think it's possible to bully white people (as a function of their whiteness and in the UK)?! I have no doubt that you can bully people who happen to be white (I'm white and I was bullied), but that's not the same. To class this as racism seems on its face ridiculous.

noobermin 10y ago
I don't think he was insinuating racism. Instead, he is remarking on what he sees in social media, as people blaming this specifically on "old whites".
- objclxt 10y ago
  I think on a purely statistical level this is somewhat true, certainly the polling suggests it. However, millennials should really be just as mad - if not more so - at themselves for either a) not voting (under 30 turnout being much lower than over 50), or b) not taking it seriously (it's becoming clear some people voted "leave" because they didn't seriously think it was a viable outcome and wanted to just register their dissatisfaction with the government).
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    The polling also seemed to suggest that remain would have a comfortable victory. What people are not doing is tracing the source of the statistics. They lead to pro-remain lobbyists. I don't know if the statistics are correct or not, but what I can tell you is that I see absolutely no mention of statistical methods in the various graphs reported in the media. What I've learned: If I ever need a lobbyist, I'm hiring these guys - https://infacts.org/ https://infacts.org/ (In case you are wonder, they are the source of all those wonderful graphs you've seen in the newspapers on the demographics of voters)
    - noobermin 10y ago
      So I've heard something similar before...wouldn't showing remain winning make remain voters complacent and less likely to vote?

broodbucket 10y ago

People would be better able to see it coming if they didn't choose to ignore it. Twitter is very quick to remove pro-Trump hashtag from trends and autocomplete, Facebook has a huge, well documented history of censoring conservatives. On places like Reddit, admitting you are a Trump or Brexit supporter provokes no political discussion, but immediate insults of being a racist, or sexist, or a bigot, or xenophobic. Why bother engaging if you're just going to get yelled at? Social media is becoming so much of a "safe space" that having a place to freely express ideas has become a liberal echo chamber, which is great for people who want to feel like they're always right, but the same people then blame things like Brexit on those old, white racists. They would've seen it coming if they had ever dared to listen.

ctrlalt_g 10y ago
It caught me by surprise the other day to learn about this. It's not just Twitter and Reddit and Facebook. It's also college campuses and public events, and weird unexpected places like public radio (Planet Money, I think, or Freakonomics. I can't remember which). It's made me question my political loyalties.
- broodbucket 10y ago
  Personally, it's swung me from the left to the center. I never thought the left would be the ones censoring and controlling speech.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > I never thought the left would be the ones censoring and controlling speech. The old Soviet Union was infamous for pervasive censorship.
    - tomp 10y ago
      It's not fair to compare the democratic left with the autocratic communist movements, just as it's unfair to compare the democratic right with autocratic nazist/fascist movements.

mwfunk 10y ago

The outpouring of hatred I see dumped on Trump and Trump supporters almost entirely seems to be a reaction against the outpouring of hatred coming from Trump and Trump supporters, coupled with genuine fear about what might happen if he wins the election. His opponents and the media have in general treated him with vastly more respect than he has given any of them.

protomyth 10y ago
I really don't like Trump (yeah, I'm bitter), but "the outpouring of hatred coming from Trump and Trump supporters" is really not the case. There are a lot more supporters getting their butts kicked than doing the kicking (still happens). It just isn't reported like that. Its amazing to watch twitter (don't use the hash tags, they don't seem to show) and see what people say.

Amezarak 10y ago

> And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people. I am skeptical of Trump's general election chances. His polling was reasonably accurate throughout the primary campaign season and I'm not sure voters in the general election will be more likely to hide their support of Trump than voters in the primary elections. But you are absolutely right about the contempt poured on the classes that will vote for Trump. And you can see the extent to which that hatred and contempt has completely permeated the establishment, the media culture, and the sunny sides of the Internet - look at how many people on HN comment about how they are 'terrified' of Trump, or that he has no policy ideas other than Make America Great Again. Look, I can absolutely, one-hundred-percent get behind not supporting Trump and not voting for Trump. But dig down deep: what terrifies you about Trump? He doesn't drink coffee or alcohol, he doesn't appear to have any mental issues, he doesn't have any kind of loose cannon reputation in his business dealings. And he's 70 years old, he's not going to change. And if you're cynical of Trump, you can definitely say that Trump is all about Trump. He builds all these big buildings and casinos and puts his name on them. Clearly, he cares about his legacy. He might have awful, awful policy ideas, but he's not stupid: he's not going to act against his own self-interest (to make his mark) and he's going to be limited by the power of the office of the Presidency. There would be reason to be discouraged if Trump won the election; there would be reason to prepare to do battle on many policy fronts, if Congress somehow isn't totally anti-Trump. But terrified? Why? The fundamental reason is that Trump represents the same type of people in America that Brexit represented in the UK. You could group voters in America into two different classes: the traditionalists and the cosmopolitans. The latter group are more likely to be university educated. They're more likely to be immigrants. They're more likely to participate in online discussions. They have experience with people from all around the world. They dominate the media and the political establishment. America is little more to them than a patch of ground with a Constitution. You and I are probably cosmopolitans, and we pretty much rule the western world. And we live in a bubble. The former group are usually older. They are often less educated. They and their families have lived in America for a hundred years, or even longer. Their America is more than a patch of land with a Constitution. It's a home, it has a shared culture, it has an official language, and they are proud of who they are and they love their culture. They know it wasn't that long ago the US was more than 90% white and the rest of it black. The same goes for the UK, except you have people whose ancestors have lived there for a thousand years or more. The new cosmopolitan, globalist economy has left them behind. They subsist on what little work they can find and often various forms of welfare. Cosmopolitans celebrate multicultural London, where white British are now a minority. Traditionalists feel a vague sense of despair that their country has been taken from them without a fight, their culture extinguished one little bit at a time as the cosmopolitans tell them that this is how it's going to be, and they had better get out of the way or be called racists. Traditionalists want to know why it's so important to have a cosmopolitan London rather than an English London. I live in Mississippi, which voted for Trump overwhelmingly. I'm an extreme edge case - I think based on the election results and exit polling, there were maybe five other white Obama voters in my county. Make no mistake, these people don't vote Republican because they think that Republicans have their back. They vote Republican because they feel that liberals in general have nothing more than sneering contempt for them as backwards hicks. They know perfectly well that Republicans are pro-business, not pro-traditionalist - thus why you see the Republican establishment in panic and revolt over Trump. Trump is a godsend to them. I don't think they believe that Trump will fulfill all his promises. They think they can't return to a pre-globalist world. What they hope is that he will be able to fuck the establishment cosmopolitans. They talk about Trump getting into the White House and finding out "what's going on" and sending half the government packing and the other half to prison. They voted Trump because they wanted to hear "you're fired!" When you start looking for the contempt, you see it everywhere. For example, look at all the hand wringing about how Trump voters are white men - they must be racist, voting for their perceived self-interest. Yet when blacks voted overwhelmingly for Obama, voting for their perceived self-interest, it was noted, it is used as an election strategy, but there weren't thousands of news articles condemning them for being racist. (Except in niche conservative outlets that nobody cares about.) There are unbelievable amounts of contempt and hate poured on these people. It is not that their views are to be disbelieved, or refuted, or argued with: they are to be ignored, unspeakable, considered stupid, called racist. They are not even worth mentioning or talking about if you can get away with it, unless it's to make them a butt of a joke or to generate clicks for outrage. I think Clinton will likely win, but the split between the traditionalists and the cosmopolitians will only grow worse. Maybe we can age out of it - I think the Internet has been a great cosmpolitian-izing force, whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing. If not, I'm afraid it will come to a worse head than Trump somewhere down the line. NB: I do see some value in the traditionalist worldview. I don't think free trade has been the savior I thought it would be. I'm not convinced the idea that people should uproot themselves and follow the jobs around is a great idea. And I suspect the big push for immigration has a lot more with benefiting big businesses by increasing the supply of labor than it does noble ideals about freedom of movement.

jonnathanson 10y ago

"And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people." I don't know if the scorn heaped upon Trump voters created their marginalized condition or feelings, so much as it amplified and emotionally validated those feelings. Trump's supporters have been economically marginalized for 30 years and running, as have the equivalent Leave voters in the UK. Media polarization has contributed to an increasingly wide cultural gap, as well. And now, our obvious scorn and contempt for these people aggravates their feelings of marginalization; it confirms to them that that we, the system's apparent winners, don't have their interests in mind.

deleted 10y ago

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Brakenshire 10y ago

> I deeply suspect as well that the one-sidedness of presentation in the MSM Are you implying the 'mainstream media' was overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU? That is very wrong. These are some headlines from The Sun and The Daily Mail (which are by far the two largest newspapers in the country) from the ten day period running up to the vote: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cln4QsSWgAA228h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cln4QsSWgAA228h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllrH-9WQAANAeT.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllrH-9WQAANAeT.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJgCXwWEAQLtRf.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClJgCXwWEAQLtRf.jpg http://cdn.thejournal.ie/embeds/twitter/f27fd2d833060ed084e8d3d3684e07cf.png http://cdn.thejournal.ie/embeds/twitter/f27fd2d833060ed084e8... http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/575e63391500002a0073a221.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5... http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClWAiflWYAAzWlE.jpg http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClWAiflWYAAzWlE.jpg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/576900b82200002d00f8215f.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/5... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgdZBtUYAQ9s7y.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgdZBtUYAQ9s7y.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck3LA0-WkAEI_On.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck3LA0-WkAEI_On.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgWY7GWQAQ0Wqp.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgWY7GWQAQ0Wqp.jpg http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/15/suns-brexit-boost-to-shares-front-page-is-a-topsy-turvy-take-on-the-truth#img-2 http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/15/suns-brexit-boo... http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/576900b82200002d00f8215f.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_600_noupscale/5...

alistair77 10y ago

I understand your intent but please don't find this satisfying. Many who voted 'out' did so simply because they felt they had no other method of getting their voice heard. They used the referendum as a way to express their loss of faith in UK politics, answering a different question to the one asked. It's a complete failure of the democratic process. Regrettably, those same people will likely be by far the worst effected by the result.

tigershark 10y ago

You are thinking that you have no stakes in this race. I honestly think that you are wrong. And your rant about "bullied children" is just the proof you have no idea what you are speaking about. British people are living in a sovereign nation and they decided to leave a sovereign super-national entity. I live in UK since 2010 and I think I should express my opinion. People in Wales voted out even if their jobs are mostly paid by EU. Wales is by far the poorest part of uk and it's heavily subsidised. By EU. You can put as much rethoric as you want in your post but it doesn't change reality. The facts are that the pound crashed to 1.33 against the USD (last time it arrived to that level I was not even 5 years old, in 1985, and for sure didn't happen in one day). A lot of companies here are going to lay off/relocate jobs. Scotland is going to have a new referendum for independence, probably the same will happen to north Ireland and Gibraltar. Economy in Europe is completely messed up. Italy stock exchange had the worst crash EVER. Spain lost 12% and Greece 13%. In a single day. .SPX lost "only" 3.5% in a day. I know how much I contribute to uk economy (> 1 thousand of pounds of taxes per week) and a lot of my friends that are on a similar level are thinking to leave before end of the year. This referendum will trigger a global crisis, regardless of your belief to be safe and "out of the race". On a more personal level I'm really disgusted about British people. I wish I could be in some other country where they would rationally decide who they want instead of being in a nation that doesn't want immigrants at all. So I will let them be happy about their victory and as soon as I can I will move to somewhere else. I hope this comment can give you a better reality view from someone that lives there and has first hand experiences instead of relying on Twitter (that I don't even use) or all the other trendy social networks that you mentioned.

smm2000 10y ago
I am pretty sure British are OK with you (aka somebody paying 1K/week in taxes) staying in UK. At worst you will have to get work visa with minimal efforts no matter what. In contrast to US, UK has well functioning visa system for highly qualified workers Free movement of labour benefits workers in poor countries immigrating to UK and mostly affluent/rich UK citizens working in Europe. It's of no use to middle class and down - they are not moving anywhere. If EU stopped at free movement of stuff and did not do free movement of labor (beyond visa free travel), it would have been much better union. Blaming UK voters for Spanish stock exchange losses is just asinine - generally you should pay very little attention to daily stock market moves when decided policy for next 50 years. It's too finicky and move for no reason at all.

deleted 10y ago

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wr1472 10y ago

> Here was a democratically conducted vote for which >50% of a population voted "Leave". 50% of those who voted, not of the population. The turnout was ~70%; of that ~51% voted to leave. So for every 10 eligible voters, 7 bothered to turn up. Of those seven 3.5 voted to leave; 35% of the electorate voted leave unless my maths and assumptions are incorrect.

ps4fanboy 10y ago
You are making a baseless assumption the non voting 30% would vote differently

clockwerx 10y ago

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jun/24/the-areas-and-demographics-where-the-brexit-vote-was-won http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jun/24/the-are...

chrismcb 10y ago

Except that >50% of the population did not vote to leave. >50% of the voters voted that way. Looks like the turnout was 72% or so, the claim is the turnout for the youngers was low.