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I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in

I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin, but let's be realistic, the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. Also, this thread is about European tech hubs. Have a look at average startup salaries in London, Paris, Nordic countries, ...

kafkaesq 10y ago
No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more affordable area (and to do interesting work). But a 50% haircut ($120K to $60K) is really a hard pill to swallow for such folks.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  > They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software developer works at a hedge fund.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. Well a few lines up from here someone was claiming the exact opposite -- "there's a huge lack of talent." (Which would seem to imply both local talent, and talent that can be drawn from outside).
    - hocuspocus 10y ago
      Again, look at the competition. Is it any easier for other cities? - London: higher salaries, much higher CoL => lower disposable income - Dublin: barely higher salaries, higher CoL - Amsterdam: similar/lower salaries, higher CoL - Paris: lower salaries, higher CoL - Stockholm, Helsinki: lower salaries, higher CoL (and crazy housing situation in Stockholm) - Southern/Eastern Europe, Baltics: low CoL but the salaries are bad You want to make good money? This leaves Oslo and Copenhagen where your overall purchasing power isn't going to be that much higher. The true outliers are Luxembourg and Switzerland where the tech ecosystem sadly isn't very exciting (why do you think a Swiss would take a job in Berlin? :) I don't think Europe will ever be able to create a tech hub similar to the SV. And without a high concentration of talent, salaries can't go that much higher. London might get somewhere closer to NYC, but right now there's a very significant gap between finance and the rest. And Brexit will certainly not help.
      - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        You're missing places like Reading, where the salaries are London-ish (as you can just take a 25 minutes train to London for work), but the housing is cheaper. I pay for a decently sized house as much as I would pay for a tiny studio in London (and probably not in Zone 1) Still probably more expensive than Berlin though :)
AndreyErmakov 10y ago
>> I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Not really. From my experience, only very large companies can sometimes offer you about 1-2K as a compensation for your relocation expenses and that's it. Consider yourself very lucky. >> the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. High living expenses is a good reason already. Also, what is not immediately obvious, an employee whose mind is constantly occupied with things like looking for a cheaper apartment or finding a more paying employment is not going to be performing well. He/she has other needs and building your product well just isn't high priority for them.

kafkaesq 10y ago

No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more affordable area (and to do interesting work). But a 50% haircut ($120K to $60K) is really a hard pill to swallow for such folks.

hocuspocus 10y ago
> They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software developer works at a hedge fund.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. Well a few lines up from here someone was claiming the exact opposite -- "there's a huge lack of talent." (Which would seem to imply both local talent, and talent that can be drawn from outside).
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    Again, look at the competition. Is it any easier for other cities? - London: higher salaries, much higher CoL => lower disposable income - Dublin: barely higher salaries, higher CoL - Amsterdam: similar/lower salaries, higher CoL - Paris: lower salaries, higher CoL - Stockholm, Helsinki: lower salaries, higher CoL (and crazy housing situation in Stockholm) - Southern/Eastern Europe, Baltics: low CoL but the salaries are bad You want to make good money? This leaves Oslo and Copenhagen where your overall purchasing power isn't going to be that much higher. The true outliers are Luxembourg and Switzerland where the tech ecosystem sadly isn't very exciting (why do you think a Swiss would take a job in Berlin? :) I don't think Europe will ever be able to create a tech hub similar to the SV. And without a high concentration of talent, salaries can't go that much higher. London might get somewhere closer to NYC, but right now there's a very significant gap between finance and the rest. And Brexit will certainly not help.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      You're missing places like Reading, where the salaries are London-ish (as you can just take a 25 minutes train to London for work), but the housing is cheaper. I pay for a decently sized house as much as I would pay for a tiny studio in London (and probably not in Zone 1) Still probably more expensive than Berlin though :)

AndreyErmakov 10y ago

>> I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Not really. From my experience, only very large companies can sometimes offer you about 1-2K as a compensation for your relocation expenses and that's it. Consider yourself very lucky. >> the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. High living expenses is a good reason already. Also, what is not immediately obvious, an employee whose mind is constantly occupied with things like looking for a cheaper apartment or finding a more paying employment is not going to be performing well. He/she has other needs and building your product well just isn't high priority for them.