10 ms·

Thoughts on the sociology of Brexit

117 points by reidrac 10y ago

nickbauman 10y ago
This brings to mind Jean-Baptiste Queru's (Yes, that JBQ, the head of AOSP) 2015 post regarding the structural problems inherent in the EU's fiscal policy. Read it: whether you agree with his analysis or not, it will make you stop and think. https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/CPB9bwHqsfn https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/CPB9bwHqsfn
- _rpd 10y ago
  He's advocating for fiscal union, but in paractice this requires a "United States of Europe". The proud nations of Europe don't appear to be ready for this level of union yet. It's an open question whether the current crisis is a long term step away, or will lead to the relatively radical reformation required to achieve closer union.
- kiok 10y ago
  What's really the point of us stopping and thinking about it. I'd like to see Larry Page, Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg think about it. Cause its the same story with the Billions they have accumulated. Unsustainable.
nsainsbury 10y ago
As someone with no horse in this race, I hadn't been following the debate leading up to the Brexit but I did see the aftermath on Twitter, FB, mainstream media, etc. What I saw was really fascinating - an almost universal outpouring of scorn and derision for "Leave" voters: Ageism. Racism. Classism - "Only uneducated old, poor, white people voted to leave". It hit me then pretty hard just how much of a echo chamber places like Twitter, FB, and even the mainstream media now are and how poorly they sample and represent the views of everyone. Here was a democratically conducted vote for which >50% of a population voted "Leave", yet based on how one-sided the response has been you would think the votes must have been rigged. I deeply suspect as well that the one-sidedness of presentation in the MSM is a root contributor to the massive divide that drove the Brexit. What you have here is a failure of empathy - as the article touches on, "every smug, liberal, snobbish barb that Ian Hislop threw his way...was ensuring that revenge would be all the greater, once it arrived". Here are ridiculed and marginalised people showing you that while they lack representation in Twitter, MSM, etc, in a democracy their vote is just as powerful as yours. In some sense I actually find it quite a satisfying outcome when viewed in this lense. A simple analogy might be "A bullied child just threw a punch back at his bully even though he may have deep down known it'll get him in more trouble." And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Interesting comment. I can't join you in finding the outcome satisfying. But it certainly is a wake-up call to those of us terrified by the idea of a Trump presidency.
- fleitz 10y ago
  Couldn't agree more on the bullying aspect. That's what I love about Trump / Brexit, it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. It's also once of the best BATNAs to enter any negotiation with. Destroying the EU was such a better play than 'free college' or '$15/hr min wage', screw the table scraps go for the jugular, show them you aren't fucking around.
  - kiba 10y ago
    Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.
    - fleitz 10y ago
      For sure, it's the tenacity that I love about it. If you're willing to reset to zero it's a lot more daunting for those with something to lose.
  - VLM 10y ago
    > it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. Its the only punch thrown in at least two generations, maybe three. That's a large part of the shock. When the bullied strike back against the bully, the bully is utterly staggered not at the force of the blow but that they dared to fight for themselves at all. The crying I've seen was appropriate for a successful conclusion of operation sealion, not independence from an unelected foreign dictatorship and some international mega corporations.
    - fleitz 10y ago
      Yeah if you think about it a country or supernation breaking up without bloodshed is amazing.
_rpd 10y ago
Are there really a significant number of regretful Leave voters? This trope seems to have been uncritically adopted by Remain supporters.
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  There were a few interviewed on the BBC the morning of the result. So I think that inflated the perception that there are millions of them.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    Getting interviewees to say what you want them to - easier than you think. Getting interviewees to say only what you want them to - basically impossible.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Hard to know for sure, but there's this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24...
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Who knows? It's establishment propaganda built on mined quotes from vox pop interviews. Remain supporters are parroting everything uncritically that paints people who voted opposite them as morons.
- objclxt 10y ago
  Anecdotal as it is, I will say this: I saw a number of Facebook posts prior to the election from millennials who said they were voting leave and when challenged replied "well, remain is going to win anyway". I do think this was the belief held by a sizable number of people voting - they didn't think the vote had any real chance of succeeding, and used it as a protest vote against the current government. And on the other end of the spectrum, you could imagine somebody in their 60s or 70s whose retirement was heavily invested in "safe" stocks waking up the day after the vote and finding their pension down 20% feeling a little sore.
saboot 10y ago
A liberal echo chamber? Have you not seen r/the_donald ?
- broodbucket 10y ago
  The_Donald is a /pol/-driven circlejerk that noone takes seriously, it is not comparable to the rest of the community.
- robothampsters 10y ago
  Reddit literally changed their algorithm for r/all to stop the_donald from showing up.
- MajorLOL 10y ago
  Have you not seen the problems with censorship in r/the_donald ? Reddit is the largest liberal echo chamber on the net, every character of it's content is actively moderated. It's exactly the point being made here - liberal strategy as been to define and label opposition as racist/sexist/*ist for a very long time now. So those of us who disagree are just bigoted against incessantly. Many of those in disagreement with liberal ideas just vote instead of debate because it's tiresome having people generalize and stereotype you ad nauseum.
  - colemickens 10y ago
    >liberal strategy as been to define and label opposition as racist/sexist/*ist for a very long time now. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and claim that Donald Trump is not racist or sexist? Or that the GOP hasn't consistently been fighting against LGBT rights for decades?
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      The person you are responding to means to say that they are unhappy with being called on sexist/racist behavior and can't we just go back to the good old days where white male dominance was the cultural norm?
protomyth 10y ago
" Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it." "This taps into a much broader cultural and political malaise, that also appears to be driving the rise of Donald Trump in the US. Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change." I know quite a few Trump voters and read quite a few forums on that discuss the GOP race, and they are expecting change ("real change" as I'm often told). I think this assumption is pretty far off. I see it a lot in the US media, but I think its some internal justification for why people might believe something different than themselves. After all, people really cannot actually be supporting Trump, right?!? A book just came out expressing part of the phenomena by Dana Loesch (conservative media whose preferred candidate also didn't win) https://www.amazon.com/Flyover-Nation-Country-Youve-Never/dp/0399563881/ https://www.amazon.com/Flyover-Nation-Country-Youve-Never/dp... - Its bit a "provocative" (ok, a lot) in tone, but might round out the discussion.
sandworm101 10y ago
This: >>> Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change. If anything, they are more comforting and trustworthy if predicated on the notion that the future is beyond rescue, for that chimes more closely with people’s private experiences. I talk to too many people who have given up yet, for some horrible reason, they still want to vote. They vote to make their assumptions reality. The problem is that giving up is too easy. It plays into the hands of a great many interest groups. The climate is dead, so why bother trying? Let me drive my lead-powered car for my last few years. The economy is going to tank no matter what we do, so let's take a payday loan and head to Vegas. Those of us with more than a decades or two left on this earth must force such people to come to terms. The world is going to keep on turning. Rather than wax nostalgic for a past that never really was a thing, we choose to actually try to fix things today. If that means ignoring calls for a return to glory days, so be it.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  > Those of us with more than a decades or two left on this earth must force such people to come to terms. We can start with a massive wealth redistribution backdating to 1973. How does that sound and when can we start?
davidf18 10y ago
True, the BrExit echoes the feeling of a working class who have been marginalized by the leadership who said they would represent the will of the people. True of Trump supporters and Sanders supporters. I spent a bit of time reading about the political and media elites in Britain ignoring the plight of the working class. 1. Apparently, the British people never had a referendum to join the EU. The elites decided for them. 2. Unlike the leadership of our "union" the United States, the leadership of the EU have not been given a mandate to lead by the voters. 3. 20 years ago there were 0.9 million immigrants in the UK, now 3.3 million. 4. Prime Minster Cameron said he would reduce the yearly 330,000 immigration rate to 10,000 or so and he broke his word. Had he done what he said he'd do, BrExit may not have (probably?) would not have happened. 5. Apparently these immigrants get four years of social support. The social systems are stressed as is the National Health Service. Of course, the elites can choose to use the private Harley Street doctors, something the working class would be unable to do. 6. Cameron did not have to call the BrExit referendum, but chose to call it because of his hubris thinking that it could not possibly win. The British political elite like their American counterparts have refused to hear the suffering of their citizens. They have been marginalized by elites who lack empathy. Instead of listening to the voters, the political and media elites simply berate those who do respond such as Trump. They call Trump a racist because he is against illegal immigration. He has never said he is against Mexicans who have legally immigrated to the US. In the US, the media elite also refuses to use the correct phrasing of illegal immigrant and using the term "undocumented" which is bad reporting because the correct term is illegal.
- tremon 10y ago
  Unlike the leadership of our "union" the United States, the leadership of the EU have not been given a mandate to lead by the voters. Yes and no. The leadership of the EU (council) is composed of the leadership of its members. The controlling house (EP) is voted directly. The only part that isn't chosen directly is the commission (EC), and those members are nominated by the council and vetted by the EP. But the EU indeed does not have a mandate to lead. The EU proposes treaties, not legislation. It is up to the national parliaments to implement legislation that meets the EU treaties. The social systems are stressed as is the National Health Service So are those in the other EU countries. Maybe it has something to do with a global financial crisis that started almost a decade ago? However, as many have pointed out even before the vote, the EU migrants are responsible for only a small part of the strain in the NHS: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/ "in 2014, migration from the EU added £160 million in additional costs for the NHS across the UK [..] The same technique suggests that £1.4 billion in additional costs were caused by other changes in the number and age of people in the UK" "immigrants from the European Economic Area made a more positive contribution than UK natives—and a far more positive contribution than immigrants from outside the EEA" "The UK paid £674 million [in heathcare costs] to other countries, while receiving just £49 million in return. [The NHS is] simply failing to charge when it is supposed to—recouping only a fraction of what should be around £340m from other countries." Cameron did not have to call the BrExit referendum Yes and no. Yes, he had to because it was a campaign promise. Many say that it was this very promise (to hold a brexit referendum) that gave him the election victory at all. No, he did not have to make that promise during the election campaign, but he did anyway, partly to win over voters, partly to soothe anti-EU voices in his own party.
revelation 10y ago
Has it really been less than 100 years? The point of the EU was always a "lesson learned" from Versailles. So you "pay more than you get back"? The EU simply put is and was insurance there won't be another V2 landing in London, because the next version would certainly be carrying a nuclear warhead. All the destruction of WW2, and it only took a generation to die to forget all about it.
gravypod 10y ago
I don't think this article, or many of the other articles, accurately portray the mindset of leave voters. Firstly, I'd like to start off with saying yes: there are many problems to leaving the EU, but consequently there are also many positives. This isn't a one sided issue. There is an array of reasons to vote either side. One of my older British friends that I used to work with consistently held the following opinion: > Me: Do you think Britain will exit? > Friend: I sure hope we do [...] We never wanted into the EU in the first place, back in the 80's. The whole population was up in arms about it [...]. Our politicians refused to join unless we got certain exceptions. Like keeping our own money and a few other things. Now we are financially supporting the EU. Too many idiots in government though. > Me: Looks like you've voted to leave! Also, the currency has fallen. I'm going to buy some GBP tomorrow when it hits 1.30 USD to 1 GBP. I'll sell it to make a quick buck. > Friend: Finally. We only joined because our then prime minister John Major forced us to join. We didn't even elect the dude, he took over after Maggie Thatcher left. The pound will recover fast, so stock up now :) Now, I'm not saying that he is right about everything, although I do trust his judgement, but I will say that I feel he accurately represents most of the 40+ group's opinions on the EU. His age group feels: - EU is an amorphous blob that has no accountability to it's actions - EU is redundant - The VAT that is set by the EU is antithetical to good trade deals - Sending any amount of money to an organization you do not support is out of the question - Undemocratic (Unellected officials draft the laws, people from other countries vote on things that directly effect you) - The EU is making a push to blur country boarders to the best of it's efforts - The migrant crisis' effects on the UK are a byproduct of how the EU operates As far as I can tell, all of these points are either real problems with the EU or will soon become real problems for the EU. I don't think it's outrageous to say that, and I definitely don't think it's crazy to want to leave an organization like this. This is exacerbated by the fact that, as it seems, Britain is the least-EU like country in the EU currently. Their cultural and social values are very different from the many other cultures that are in the EU. Due to this, they are often on the loosing side of agreements (almost 70% from the last figure I saw [0]) What is really worrying to me is that people are now saying "You're old, so your vote shouldn't count." This is a trend I see more and more. I feel it's crazy to say something like that, but it definitely speaks volumes for where our western societies are headed in the next few years. In the end, this won't really change much either way. The UK has one of the worlds largest economies and now they can make trade deals to encourage buys from around the world to come to their door step. I know that I'm sure ready to buy some British-made food items in the USA (It's been a while since I was able to get someone to send me more marmite). [0] - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-european-parliament/ http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-eur...
gravypod 10y ago
I don't think this article, or many of the other articles, accurately portray the mindset of leave voters. Firstly, I'd like to start off with saying yes: there are many problems to leaving the EU, but consequently there are also many positives. This isn't a one sided issue. There is an array of reasons to vote either side. One of my older British friends that I used to work with consistently held the following opinion: > Me: Do you think Britain will exit? > Friend: I sure hope we do [...] We never wanted into the EU in the first place, back in the 80's. The whole population was up in arms about it [...]. Our politicians refused to join unless we got certain exceptions. Like keeping our own money and a few other things. Now we are financially supporting the EU. Too many idiots in government though. > Me: Looks like you've voted to leave! Also, the currency has fallen. I'm going to buy some GBP tomorrow when it hits 1.30 USD to 1 GBP. I'll sell it to make a quick buck. > Friend: Finally. We only joined because our then prime minister John Major forced us to join. We didn't even elect the dude, he took over after Maggie Thatcher left. The pound will recover fast, so stock up now :) Now, I'm not saying that he is right about everything, although I do trust his judgement, but I will say that I feel he accurately represents most of the 40+ group's opinions on the EU. His age group feels: - EU is an amorphous blob that has no accountability to it's actions - EU is redundant - The VAT that is set by the EU is antithetical to good trade deals - Sending any amount of money to an organization you do not support is out of the question - Undemocratic (Unellected officials draft the laws, people from other countries vote on things that directly effect you) - The EU is making a push to blur country boarders to the best of it's efforts - The migrant crisis' effects on the UK are a byproduct of how the EU operates As far as I can tell, all of these points are either real problems with the EU or will soon become real problems for the EU. I don't think it's outrageous to say that, and I definitely don't think it's crazy to want to leave an organization like this. This is exacerbated by the fact that, as it seems, Britain is the least-EU like country in the EU currently. Their cultural and social values are very different from the many other cultures that are in the EU. Due to this, they are often on the loosing side of agreements (almost 70% from the last figure I saw [0]) What is really worrying to me is that people are now saying "You're old, so your vote shouldn't count." This is a trend I see more and more. I feel it's crazy to say something like that, but it definitely speaks volumes for where our western societies are headed in the next few years. In the end, this won't really change much either way. The UK has one of the worlds largest economies and now they can make trade deals to encourage buys from around the world to come to their door step. I know that I'm sure ready to buy some British-made food items in the USA (It's been a while since I was able to get someone to send me more marmite). [0] - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-european-parliament/ http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-eur...
hoju 10y ago
I campaigned for Brexit over the last month and am excited with the outcome. However very disappointed with reaction in the international media - it was a complex debate with good arguments on both sides. Former MEP Daniel Hannan presented some of these arguments in an excellent speech at the Oxford Union: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY
djhn 10y ago
I would challenge point 3. The Brexit campaign did make promises of future, where the Remain camp didn't. It's politics 101: highlight the positive. Remain side was labelled "Project Fear" - all they talked about were the negative consequences of a brexit outcome. We know from fundamental psychology and game theory research people have different risk preferences for upside and downside. We also know from past political campaigns, that positive rhetoric is usually victorious. The confusing thing about this is that on the surface, it's the Leave side that appears negative. A big part of its message was anti-immigration, anti-modern-world, counting on xenophobia to get them the numbers. But they offered a promise of better. Take control. Things will change if you vote. All the Remain-side had to offer, were threats of things "getting even worse". They failed to see that the status quo was disappointing to a huge demographic, not something they felt desperate to maintain. If the future seems already grim, you might want to pick the carrot over the stick.

117 points by reidrac 10y ago

This brings to mind Jean-Baptiste Queru's (Yes, that JBQ, the head of AOSP) 2015 post regarding the structural problems inherent in the EU's fiscal policy. Read it: whether you agree with his analysis or not, it will make you stop and think. https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/CPB9bwHqsfn https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/CPB9bwHqsfn

_rpd 10y ago
He's advocating for fiscal union, but in paractice this requires a "United States of Europe". The proud nations of Europe don't appear to be ready for this level of union yet. It's an open question whether the current crisis is a long term step away, or will lead to the relatively radical reformation required to achieve closer union.
kiok 10y ago
What's really the point of us stopping and thinking about it. I'd like to see Larry Page, Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg think about it. Cause its the same story with the Billions they have accumulated. Unsustainable.

nsainsbury 10y ago

As someone with no horse in this race, I hadn't been following the debate leading up to the Brexit but I did see the aftermath on Twitter, FB, mainstream media, etc. What I saw was really fascinating - an almost universal outpouring of scorn and derision for "Leave" voters: Ageism. Racism. Classism - "Only uneducated old, poor, white people voted to leave". It hit me then pretty hard just how much of a echo chamber places like Twitter, FB, and even the mainstream media now are and how poorly they sample and represent the views of everyone. Here was a democratically conducted vote for which >50% of a population voted "Leave", yet based on how one-sided the response has been you would think the votes must have been rigged. I deeply suspect as well that the one-sidedness of presentation in the MSM is a root contributor to the massive divide that drove the Brexit. What you have here is a failure of empathy - as the article touches on, "every smug, liberal, snobbish barb that Ian Hislop threw his way...was ensuring that revenge would be all the greater, once it arrived". Here are ridiculed and marginalised people showing you that while they lack representation in Twitter, MSM, etc, in a democracy their vote is just as powerful as yours. In some sense I actually find it quite a satisfying outcome when viewed in this lense. A simple analogy might be "A bullied child just threw a punch back at his bully even though he may have deep down known it'll get him in more trouble." And a part of me wonders whether the same daily outpouring of hatred you see dumped on Trump/Trump supporters has also created a very large class of marginalized, ridiculed people who are going to let us know exactly what they think come time to vote -- and like the Brexit we may not even see it coming, because we live in the Twitter, FB, MSM bubble that does not accurately sample the people.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Interesting comment. I can't join you in finding the outcome satisfying. But it certainly is a wake-up call to those of us terrified by the idea of a Trump presidency.
fleitz 10y ago
Couldn't agree more on the bullying aspect. That's what I love about Trump / Brexit, it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. It's also once of the best BATNAs to enter any negotiation with. Destroying the EU was such a better play than 'free college' or '$15/hr min wage', screw the table scraps go for the jugular, show them you aren't fucking around.
- kiba 10y ago
  Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.
  - fleitz 10y ago
    For sure, it's the tenacity that I love about it. If you're willing to reset to zero it's a lot more daunting for those with something to lose.
- VLM 10y ago
  > it's nice to see the little guy throw a punch or two. Its the only punch thrown in at least two generations, maybe three. That's a large part of the shock. When the bullied strike back against the bully, the bully is utterly staggered not at the force of the blow but that they dared to fight for themselves at all. The crying I've seen was appropriate for a successful conclusion of operation sealion, not independence from an unelected foreign dictatorship and some international mega corporations.
  - fleitz 10y ago
    Yeah if you think about it a country or supernation breaking up without bloodshed is amazing.

_rpd 10y ago

Are there really a significant number of regretful Leave voters? This trope seems to have been uncritically adopted by Remain supporters.

monk_e_boy 10y ago
There were a few interviewed on the BBC the morning of the result. So I think that inflated the perception that there are millions of them.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Getting interviewees to say what you want them to - easier than you think. Getting interviewees to say only what you want them to - basically impossible.
ScottBurson 10y ago
Hard to know for sure, but there's this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24...
pessimizer 10y ago
Who knows? It's establishment propaganda built on mined quotes from vox pop interviews. Remain supporters are parroting everything uncritically that paints people who voted opposite them as morons.
objclxt 10y ago
Anecdotal as it is, I will say this: I saw a number of Facebook posts prior to the election from millennials who said they were voting leave and when challenged replied "well, remain is going to win anyway". I do think this was the belief held by a sizable number of people voting - they didn't think the vote had any real chance of succeeding, and used it as a protest vote against the current government. And on the other end of the spectrum, you could imagine somebody in their 60s or 70s whose retirement was heavily invested in "safe" stocks waking up the day after the vote and finding their pension down 20% feeling a little sore.

saboot 10y ago

A liberal echo chamber? Have you not seen r/the_donald ?

broodbucket 10y ago
The_Donald is a /pol/-driven circlejerk that noone takes seriously, it is not comparable to the rest of the community.
robothampsters 10y ago
Reddit literally changed their algorithm for r/all to stop the_donald from showing up.
MajorLOL 10y ago
Have you not seen the problems with censorship in r/the_donald ? Reddit is the largest liberal echo chamber on the net, every character of it's content is actively moderated. It's exactly the point being made here - liberal strategy as been to define and label opposition as racist/sexist/*ist for a very long time now. So those of us who disagree are just bigoted against incessantly. Many of those in disagreement with liberal ideas just vote instead of debate because it's tiresome having people generalize and stereotype you ad nauseum.
- colemickens 10y ago
  >liberal strategy as been to define and label opposition as racist/sexist/*ist for a very long time now. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and claim that Donald Trump is not racist or sexist? Or that the GOP hasn't consistently been fighting against LGBT rights for decades?
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    The person you are responding to means to say that they are unhappy with being called on sexist/racist behavior and can't we just go back to the good old days where white male dominance was the cultural norm?

protomyth 10y ago

" Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it." "This taps into a much broader cultural and political malaise, that also appears to be driving the rise of Donald Trump in the US. Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change." I know quite a few Trump voters and read quite a few forums on that discuss the GOP race, and they are expecting change ("real change" as I'm often told). I think this assumption is pretty far off. I see it a lot in the US media, but I think its some internal justification for why people might believe something different than themselves. After all, people really cannot actually be supporting Trump, right?!? A book just came out expressing part of the phenomena by Dana Loesch (conservative media whose preferred candidate also didn't win) https://www.amazon.com/Flyover-Nation-Country-Youve-Never/dp/0399563881/ https://www.amazon.com/Flyover-Nation-Country-Youve-Never/dp... - Its bit a "provocative" (ok, a lot) in tone, but might round out the discussion.

sandworm101 10y ago

This: >>> Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change. If anything, they are more comforting and trustworthy if predicated on the notion that the future is beyond rescue, for that chimes more closely with people’s private experiences. I talk to too many people who have given up yet, for some horrible reason, they still want to vote. They vote to make their assumptions reality. The problem is that giving up is too easy. It plays into the hands of a great many interest groups. The climate is dead, so why bother trying? Let me drive my lead-powered car for my last few years. The economy is going to tank no matter what we do, so let's take a payday loan and head to Vegas. Those of us with more than a decades or two left on this earth must force such people to come to terms. The world is going to keep on turning. Rather than wax nostalgic for a past that never really was a thing, we choose to actually try to fix things today. If that means ignoring calls for a return to glory days, so be it.

antisthenes 10y ago
> Those of us with more than a decades or two left on this earth must force such people to come to terms. We can start with a massive wealth redistribution backdating to 1973. How does that sound and when can we start?

davidf18 10y ago

True, the BrExit echoes the feeling of a working class who have been marginalized by the leadership who said they would represent the will of the people. True of Trump supporters and Sanders supporters. I spent a bit of time reading about the political and media elites in Britain ignoring the plight of the working class. 1. Apparently, the British people never had a referendum to join the EU. The elites decided for them. 2. Unlike the leadership of our "union" the United States, the leadership of the EU have not been given a mandate to lead by the voters. 3. 20 years ago there were 0.9 million immigrants in the UK, now 3.3 million. 4. Prime Minster Cameron said he would reduce the yearly 330,000 immigration rate to 10,000 or so and he broke his word. Had he done what he said he'd do, BrExit may not have (probably?) would not have happened. 5. Apparently these immigrants get four years of social support. The social systems are stressed as is the National Health Service. Of course, the elites can choose to use the private Harley Street doctors, something the working class would be unable to do. 6. Cameron did not have to call the BrExit referendum, but chose to call it because of his hubris thinking that it could not possibly win. The British political elite like their American counterparts have refused to hear the suffering of their citizens. They have been marginalized by elites who lack empathy. Instead of listening to the voters, the political and media elites simply berate those who do respond such as Trump. They call Trump a racist because he is against illegal immigration. He has never said he is against Mexicans who have legally immigrated to the US. In the US, the media elite also refuses to use the correct phrasing of illegal immigrant and using the term "undocumented" which is bad reporting because the correct term is illegal.

tremon 10y ago
Unlike the leadership of our "union" the United States, the leadership of the EU have not been given a mandate to lead by the voters. Yes and no. The leadership of the EU (council) is composed of the leadership of its members. The controlling house (EP) is voted directly. The only part that isn't chosen directly is the commission (EC), and those members are nominated by the council and vetted by the EP. But the EU indeed does not have a mandate to lead. The EU proposes treaties, not legislation. It is up to the national parliaments to implement legislation that meets the EU treaties. The social systems are stressed as is the National Health Service So are those in the other EU countries. Maybe it has something to do with a global financial crisis that started almost a decade ago? However, as many have pointed out even before the vote, the EU migrants are responsible for only a small part of the strain in the NHS: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/ "in 2014, migration from the EU added £160 million in additional costs for the NHS across the UK [..] The same technique suggests that £1.4 billion in additional costs were caused by other changes in the number and age of people in the UK" "immigrants from the European Economic Area made a more positive contribution than UK natives—and a far more positive contribution than immigrants from outside the EEA" "The UK paid £674 million [in heathcare costs] to other countries, while receiving just £49 million in return. [The NHS is] simply failing to charge when it is supposed to—recouping only a fraction of what should be around £340m from other countries." Cameron did not have to call the BrExit referendum Yes and no. Yes, he had to because it was a campaign promise. Many say that it was this very promise (to hold a brexit referendum) that gave him the election victory at all. No, he did not have to make that promise during the election campaign, but he did anyway, partly to win over voters, partly to soothe anti-EU voices in his own party.

revelation 10y ago

Has it really been less than 100 years? The point of the EU was always a "lesson learned" from Versailles. So you "pay more than you get back"? The EU simply put is and was insurance there won't be another V2 landing in London, because the next version would certainly be carrying a nuclear warhead. All the destruction of WW2, and it only took a generation to die to forget all about it.

gravypod 10y ago

I don't think this article, or many of the other articles, accurately portray the mindset of leave voters. Firstly, I'd like to start off with saying yes: there are many problems to leaving the EU, but consequently there are also many positives. This isn't a one sided issue. There is an array of reasons to vote either side. One of my older British friends that I used to work with consistently held the following opinion: > Me: Do you think Britain will exit? > Friend: I sure hope we do [...] We never wanted into the EU in the first place, back in the 80's. The whole population was up in arms about it [...]. Our politicians refused to join unless we got certain exceptions. Like keeping our own money and a few other things. Now we are financially supporting the EU. Too many idiots in government though. > Me: Looks like you've voted to leave! Also, the currency has fallen. I'm going to buy some GBP tomorrow when it hits 1.30 USD to 1 GBP. I'll sell it to make a quick buck. > Friend: Finally. We only joined because our then prime minister John Major forced us to join. We didn't even elect the dude, he took over after Maggie Thatcher left. The pound will recover fast, so stock up now :) Now, I'm not saying that he is right about everything, although I do trust his judgement, but I will say that I feel he accurately represents most of the 40+ group's opinions on the EU. His age group feels: - EU is an amorphous blob that has no accountability to it's actions - EU is redundant - The VAT that is set by the EU is antithetical to good trade deals - Sending any amount of money to an organization you do not support is out of the question - Undemocratic (Unellected officials draft the laws, people from other countries vote on things that directly effect you) - The EU is making a push to blur country boarders to the best of it's efforts - The migrant crisis' effects on the UK are a byproduct of how the EU operates As far as I can tell, all of these points are either real problems with the EU or will soon become real problems for the EU. I don't think it's outrageous to say that, and I definitely don't think it's crazy to want to leave an organization like this. This is exacerbated by the fact that, as it seems, Britain is the least-EU like country in the EU currently. Their cultural and social values are very different from the many other cultures that are in the EU. Due to this, they are often on the loosing side of agreements (almost 70% from the last figure I saw [0]) What is really worrying to me is that people are now saying "You're old, so your vote shouldn't count." This is a trend I see more and more. I feel it's crazy to say something like that, but it definitely speaks volumes for where our western societies are headed in the next few years. In the end, this won't really change much either way. The UK has one of the worlds largest economies and now they can make trade deals to encourage buys from around the world to come to their door step. I know that I'm sure ready to buy some British-made food items in the USA (It's been a while since I was able to get someone to send me more marmite). [0] - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-european-parliament/ http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-meps-lose-most-in-the-eur...

gravypod 10y ago

hoju 10y ago

I campaigned for Brexit over the last month and am excited with the outcome. However very disappointed with reaction in the international media - it was a complex debate with good arguments on both sides. Former MEP Daniel Hannan presented some of these arguments in an excellent speech at the Oxford Union: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

djhn 10y ago

I would challenge point 3. The Brexit campaign did make promises of future, where the Remain camp didn't. It's politics 101: highlight the positive. Remain side was labelled "Project Fear" - all they talked about were the negative consequences of a brexit outcome. We know from fundamental psychology and game theory research people have different risk preferences for upside and downside. We also know from past political campaigns, that positive rhetoric is usually victorious. The confusing thing about this is that on the surface, it's the Leave side that appears negative. A big part of its message was anti-immigration, anti-modern-world, counting on xenophobia to get them the numbers. But they offered a promise of better. Take control. Things will change if you vote. All the Remain-side had to offer, were threats of things "getting even worse". They failed to see that the status quo was disappointing to a huge demographic, not something they felt desperate to maintain. If the future seems already grim, you might want to pick the carrot over the stick.