5 ms·

I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, fro

by entee 10y ago

I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses" How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. This vote was for fear of change, insularity, a return to a past that never actually existed. This will likely harm those who voted for the exit the most. That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. Not to mention the very likely contraction of the British economy. Yes, these are "elite" ideas promoted by people who have studied economics and politics for decades, but who else would you rather have us listen to? The problem these institutions have is taking themselves a little too seriously and completely failing to communicate a positive vision for the future. They have also failed to acknowledge and mitigate the downsides of good policies. This is leading to a backlash that will throw the good out with the bad, leaving Europe and especially England and Wales, (doubtful that the UK as constituted survives this) poorer. This is a sad state of affairs.

rayiner 10y ago
It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.
- noobermin 10y ago
  Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
- arethuza 10y ago
  Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Okay, here is the Washington Post article on the exact same study: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15....
return0 10y ago
> How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Nitpicking, but xenophobia is the fear of what is strange and unknown. The problem is that immigrants are no longer strangers. People do not want more of them , not because they don't know them, but because the do know them. It's more immigranto-phobia rather than xenophobia. It's a rather rational reaction from a self-preservation standpoint. That doesn't make it right or wrong of course. Now, seeing the reaction of brexit-supporters, it seems they chose the EU as their scapegoat of choice, but that won't fix any problems.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  Nitpicking back, xenophobia is intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is perceived as foreign or strange. His use of the word is correct, your nitpick is not. It is still xenophobic even whey they're not unknown.
- makomk 10y ago
  There was a very noticeable correlation between support for leaving the EU and areas with few immigrants. Fear of the strange and unknown is about right, I think.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    Exactly. Same here in Germany. The xenophobic Pegida movement is strongest in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia, which incidentally are also the counties with the lowest fractions of immigrants among the population. Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendischeBevolkerung/Tabellen/Bundeslaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be...
bjourne 10y ago
> Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. There are a lot of practically illiterate people in every country. If you were an illiterate Brit working a simple construction job, wouldn't you be worried about competition from Poles and EU migrants from other countries? > That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. I would think that only a very small minority of Brits work abroad for extended periods of times. The benefit for British people to be able to work abroad might not be worth the cost in extra competition for low-skill jobs from very large number of EU immigrants.

by entee 10y ago

rayiner 10y ago

It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.

noobermin 10y ago
Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
arethuza 10y ago
Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Okay, here is the Washington Post article on the exact same study: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15....

return0 10y ago

> How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Nitpicking, but xenophobia is the fear of what is strange and unknown. The problem is that immigrants are no longer strangers. People do not want more of them , not because they don't know them, but because the do know them. It's more immigranto-phobia rather than xenophobia. It's a rather rational reaction from a self-preservation standpoint. That doesn't make it right or wrong of course. Now, seeing the reaction of brexit-supporters, it seems they chose the EU as their scapegoat of choice, but that won't fix any problems.

gnaritas 10y ago
Nitpicking back, xenophobia is intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is perceived as foreign or strange. His use of the word is correct, your nitpick is not. It is still xenophobic even whey they're not unknown.
makomk 10y ago
There was a very noticeable correlation between support for leaving the EU and areas with few immigrants. Fear of the strange and unknown is about right, I think.
- majewsky 10y ago
  Exactly. Same here in Germany. The xenophobic Pegida movement is strongest in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia, which incidentally are also the counties with the lowest fractions of immigrants among the population. Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendischeBevolkerung/Tabellen/Bundeslaender.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be...

bjourne 10y ago

> Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. There are a lot of practically illiterate people in every country. If you were an illiterate Brit working a simple construction job, wouldn't you be worried about competition from Poles and EU migrants from other countries? > That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. I would think that only a very small minority of Brits work abroad for extended periods of times. The benefit for British people to be able to work abroad might not be worth the cost in extra competition for low-skill jobs from very large number of EU immigrants.