39 ms·

“since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talk

by mudil 10y ago

“since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.” This elite behavior is rampant on HN. The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist, simple-minded, etc without even thinking. When Obama wins the election, or "progressive" issue is advanced, the intellectual elite labels it as a genuine progress that's good for everyone. When Brexit or Trump happens, that's dumb masses that fail to comprehend the intellectual intricacies, hence that's bad, really bad. Never mind that people have real grievances, that Uber drivers barely make their ends meet, that societies been uprooted. That rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses, etc etc. People have real grievances. We need to listen to them.

kiba 10y ago
People have real grievances, but it doesn't mean that they didn't make stupid decisions.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- brandnewlow 10y ago
  One of the points the OP makes is that even if you think someone's decisions are stupid, it doesn't mean they are without legitimate grievance.
entee 10y ago
I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses" How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. This vote was for fear of change, insularity, a return to a past that never actually existed. This will likely harm those who voted for the exit the most. That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. Not to mention the very likely contraction of the British economy. Yes, these are "elite" ideas promoted by people who have studied economics and politics for decades, but who else would you rather have us listen to? The problem these institutions have is taking themselves a little too seriously and completely failing to communicate a positive vision for the future. They have also failed to acknowledge and mitigate the downsides of good policies. This is leading to a backlash that will throw the good out with the bad, leaving Europe and especially England and Wales, (doubtful that the UK as constituted survives this) poorer. This is a sad state of affairs.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.
euyyn 10y ago
When a populist fear-mongering candidate has strong support, it is a failure of decision-making, no matter the side and the policies he pushes.
FreedomToCreate 10y ago
From the way I see it, the giant illiterate mass that already exists here is pissed of at the straw man of illiterate immigrants trying to change America into a 3rd world country, and in protest are self destructing on the system. There is a definite issue with income disparity and opportunity, but the way we are going about it is wrong. There are millions of job openings, but they can't be filled because of a skills deficit. Why is there a skills deficit? Because people are not being educated properly. If immigration completely stopped right now, America would still have the same problem. The educated middle class families are not having enough children, leaving a vacuum in the labor force. Combined with the education gap, we have the primer for dissatisfaction with the government. Welfare and medicare is costing the government billions of dollars. Who uses this benefits the most. The baby boomers and the poorly educated who require them to live, and they are the same population most supporting Trump. All of this is just a comical clusterf* and the media perpetuates it so they can make bank.
- yompers888 10y ago
  If immigration stopped, we'd have quite a different problem, and one that looks like Japan and China and most of Europe: namely, an ageing population with no end in sight. The welfare state problems would be exacerbated.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. If a young population was such a great thing, why are Chad, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Mozambique, South Sudan, Zambiam Malawi, Mali, Uganda, Niger all such basket cases? The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement.
    - madgar 10y ago
      > Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. Older people can be just as selfish as young people. Relevant Brexit quote [0]: > Woman on Radio 4 who voted Leave. "I'm pleased. Don't think it'll effect us cause we're elderly. For the young people I'm not sure." That doesn't sound experienced or wise - actually, if anything it seems recklessly selfish and bordering on intergenerational violence. > The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement. How exactly is that solution "easy" if all those old people vote consistently to keep the retirement age where it is? Older folks are the single most reliable constituency in America on election day. I personally think the story behind all of this is the growing divide between young and old voters. IMO our aging population is indeed more experienced and wiser... when it comes to stacking the deck in their favor and keeping their awful policies from being reversed. Which generation(s) have a problem with LGBT people? Which generation sold $1T in debt to its children and erected unprecedented barriers to discharging that debt? Which generation started the War on Drugs and refuses to admit to its failure, or even really fix the embarrassingly racist details like mandatory minimums? Which generation tells which generation that they can't possibly earn more than $7.25/hour, and which generation pours wealth into elections so they can maintain that status quo? [0] https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392 https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392
dang 10y ago
People do have real grievances, but the rants you posted against "Russian prostitutes" and "Polish kielbasa shops in London" were not among them. Those were some of the worst comments we've seen here recently--uncivil, unsubstantive and obviously unwelcome on this site. So it takes some brass, to borrow one elite globalist's colorful phrase, to diss the community ("this elite behavior is rampant on HN") and posture above it. Doing so is nearly always a marker of a bad comment, if not a bad commenter. To the extent that we have threads about Brexit or politics on HN (and we do have some, as the guidelines explicitly allow), people are welcome to argue either side of the issues, and indeed do. What they're not welcome to do is vent, spew, stomp their feet, impute ill motives to others, and all the rest of bad internet manners. They're also not welcome to diss the community whilst participating in it.
- mudil 10y ago
  Precisely the point of the article: you don't hear us (me). The Polish and Russian comment was to illustrate the immigration situation, not to question the culture or people. I am from Ukraine, and have no problems with Russians or Polish, really, they are my people. Automatically, in accordance with prevailing political correctness, I am labeled racist, xenophobe, etc. It might be OK for Istanbul to have a mix of Polish transients and Russian prostitutes and Muslims etc etc, since it is on the crossroads of East and West, but for London to look like Damascus is not such a great idea, in my opinion. Again, just my opinion that has nothing to do with racism or intolerance. As a matter of fact, I shiver when I think how Europe can go fascist and turn these poor immigrants into corpses.
DanBC 10y ago
> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de&CMP=share_btn_tw#block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... > Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire. > Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge. > The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. > Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later. > Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident. > He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”
- yompers888 10y ago
  >> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist >We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. >http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.... Fallacy of composition: incidences of hate crime offer no insight into parent's comments. Having said that, parent's comment also offers no insight into what parent does say about Brexit.

by mudil 10y ago

kiba 10y ago

People have real grievances, but it doesn't mean that they didn't make stupid decisions.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
brandnewlow 10y ago
One of the points the OP makes is that even if you think someone's decisions are stupid, it doesn't mean they are without legitimate grievance.

entee 10y ago

I think the last bit of your comment can't possibly help your case: "Rampant immigration into countries that have never seen it before, from hostile lands, from illiterate masses" How is that not a xenophobic and simple-minded statement? Immigration into the UK from non-EU citizens is subject to many controls, including passport checks (which btw, EU citizens also are subjected to). As for intra-EU migration, I'm not sure I'd characterize Poland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, etc. etc. as hostile nations or illiterate. This vote was for fear of change, insularity, a return to a past that never actually existed. This will likely harm those who voted for the exit the most. That and the young who will likely see their opportunities to work elsewhere in Europe complicated. Not to mention the very likely contraction of the British economy. Yes, these are "elite" ideas promoted by people who have studied economics and politics for decades, but who else would you rather have us listen to? The problem these institutions have is taking themselves a little too seriously and completely failing to communicate a positive vision for the future. They have also failed to acknowledge and mitigate the downsides of good policies. This is leading to a backlash that will throw the good out with the bad, leaving Europe and especially England and Wales, (doubtful that the UK as constituted survives this) poorer. This is a sad state of affairs.

rayiner 10y ago
It's deeply ironic that the continent is painting the UK as racist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo.... Surveys show that the U.K. is among the least racist countries in Europe (while France is one of the most racist). Also, immigration is way too complicated an issue for you to just flippantly paint opponents of unrestricted immigration as xenophobic. I grew up in Northern VA, which has a large population of Asian (particularly South-Asian) immigrants. Most are highly-educated, highly-skilled, upper middle class, and reliable democratic voters. But god forbid someone's kid comes out as gay or transexual. I'm one of those immigrants and I still have qualms about raising my kid around here, because I think a lot of my neighbors don't share my values.
- noobermin 10y ago
  Painting the whole UK as racist is unfair. Even if you accept the thesis that most brexit voters were racist, they only represent 52% of the population[0]. I am very skeptical of that study however. Japan has a reputation for being one of the most homogeneous countries in the world and there are a number of pretty terrible anecdotes of how foreigners are treated there. It could be the phrasing of the question, for example. Very few people would open admit racism here in the USA but studies have shown that systemic racism still exists here. Also, just because South-Asian immigrants, as you claim, may have some issues with homophobia, I'm not sure restricting immigration is related to that or would help with that. [0] 52% of those who voted, but let's say that's a representative sample.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I agree. From reports from friends: Japan remains openly and structurally racist. I am always surprised to hear how bad Japan still is about this stuff.
- arethuza 10y ago
  Rather amusing that you are citing the Daily Mail there - it's a ghastly mix of fear mongering and fashion.

euyyn 10y ago

When a populist fear-mongering candidate has strong support, it is a failure of decision-making, no matter the side and the policies he pushes.

FreedomToCreate 10y ago

From the way I see it, the giant illiterate mass that already exists here is pissed of at the straw man of illiterate immigrants trying to change America into a 3rd world country, and in protest are self destructing on the system. There is a definite issue with income disparity and opportunity, but the way we are going about it is wrong. There are millions of job openings, but they can't be filled because of a skills deficit. Why is there a skills deficit? Because people are not being educated properly. If immigration completely stopped right now, America would still have the same problem. The educated middle class families are not having enough children, leaving a vacuum in the labor force. Combined with the education gap, we have the primer for dissatisfaction with the government. Welfare and medicare is costing the government billions of dollars. Who uses this benefits the most. The baby boomers and the poorly educated who require them to live, and they are the same population most supporting Trump. All of this is just a comical clusterf* and the media perpetuates it so they can make bank.

yompers888 10y ago
If immigration stopped, we'd have quite a different problem, and one that looks like Japan and China and most of Europe: namely, an ageing population with no end in sight. The welfare state problems would be exacerbated.
- mafribe 10y ago
  Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. If a young population was such a great thing, why are Chad, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Mozambique, South Sudan, Zambiam Malawi, Mali, Uganda, Niger all such basket cases? The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement.
  - madgar 10y ago
    > Why is an aging population a problem? Older people are more experienced, wiser, and less likely to be violent. Older people can be just as selfish as young people. Relevant Brexit quote [0]: > Woman on Radio 4 who voted Leave. "I'm pleased. Don't think it'll effect us cause we're elderly. For the young people I'm not sure." That doesn't sound experienced or wise - actually, if anything it seems recklessly selfish and bordering on intergenerational violence. > The only real problem with an aging population is the pension system. This problem can easily be solved by raising the age of retirement. How exactly is that solution "easy" if all those old people vote consistently to keep the retirement age where it is? Older folks are the single most reliable constituency in America on election day. I personally think the story behind all of this is the growing divide between young and old voters. IMO our aging population is indeed more experienced and wiser... when it comes to stacking the deck in their favor and keeping their awful policies from being reversed. Which generation(s) have a problem with LGBT people? Which generation sold $1T in debt to its children and erected unprecedented barriers to discharging that debt? Which generation started the War on Drugs and refuses to admit to its failure, or even really fix the embarrassingly racist details like mandatory minimums? Which generation tells which generation that they can't possibly earn more than $7.25/hour, and which generation pours wealth into elections so they can maintain that status quo? [0] https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392 https://twitter.com/GameofThrowIns/status/746326764570427392

dang 10y ago

People do have real grievances, but the rants you posted against "Russian prostitutes" and "Polish kielbasa shops in London" were not among them. Those were some of the worst comments we've seen here recently--uncivil, unsubstantive and obviously unwelcome on this site. So it takes some brass, to borrow one elite globalist's colorful phrase, to diss the community ("this elite behavior is rampant on HN") and posture above it. Doing so is nearly always a marker of a bad comment, if not a bad commenter. To the extent that we have threads about Brexit or politics on HN (and we do have some, as the guidelines explicitly allow), people are welcome to argue either side of the issues, and indeed do. What they're not welcome to do is vent, spew, stomp their feet, impute ill motives to others, and all the rest of bad internet manners. They're also not welcome to diss the community whilst participating in it.

mudil 10y ago
Precisely the point of the article: you don't hear us (me). The Polish and Russian comment was to illustrate the immigration situation, not to question the culture or people. I am from Ukraine, and have no problems with Russians or Polish, really, they are my people. Automatically, in accordance with prevailing political correctness, I am labeled racist, xenophobe, etc. It might be OK for Istanbul to have a mix of Polish transients and Russian prostitutes and Muslims etc etc, since it is on the crossroads of East and West, but for London to look like Damascus is not such a great idea, in my opinion. Again, just my opinion that has nothing to do with racism or intolerance. As a matter of fact, I shiver when I think how Europe can go fascist and turn these poor immigrants into corpses.

DanBC 10y ago

> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de&CMP=share_btn_tw#block-576e9be5e4b0be24d34f60de http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... > Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire. > Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge. > The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse. > Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later. > Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident. > He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”

yompers888 10y ago
>> The comments that I leave in favor of Brexit are labeled xenophobic, racist >We're already seeing an increase in hate crime. Here's one example, but there are others. >http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-.... Fallacy of composition: incidences of hate crime offer no insight into parent's comments. Having said that, parent's comment also offers no insight into what parent does say about Brexit.