6 ms·

... and that's how technical debt happens.

by superuser2 10y ago

sanderjd 10y ago
And how "it's so hard for us to hire good developers!" happens.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  It doesn't happen if the company is willing to pay what they deserve, instead of wanting to have them to work for the same low rates as the ones they are paying to some offshoring consulting partner the other side of the world. Or if they provide a work environment that makes one feel like coming to the office. Good developers care about many factors besides shiny toys.
  - izacus 10y ago
    Good developers will also prefer to be well paid and have a good environment while working with modern toys instead of MUMPS infested codebase. (This is not an argument in favor of running after every new technology immediately, but you'll have trouble hiring and keeping good development on a JavaEE 2 environment with SVN build system based on 1990 code practices.)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      > ...but you'll have trouble hiring and keeping good development on a JavaEE 2 environment with SVN build system based on 1990 code practices. You just described many of the projects at DAX level customers. I can assure you that I know quite a good set of developers doing consulting for those customers. The salary and company benefits are more important to them, then using SVN vs GIT, gradle, TDD or whatever everyone in HN talks about.
      - rbanffy 10y ago
        To most developers, interesting problems and technologies are part of the compensation. To attract talent to work for unattractive technology you'll need very attractive salary and benefits. If a developer can't expect to gain transferrable skills from a job, that must be factored in. Jobs where you gain experience nobody else needs are the start of many year-end careers. OTOH, sexy startups often get away with paying less but, in return, offer environments a DAX-level customer simply can't.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        You also need to factor that not everyone wants to relocate just to work in cool technology X as not everyone lives in a SV style technology hub.
      - sanderjd 10y ago
        Sorry, what's a "DAX level customer"?
        pjmlp 10y ago
        One of these companies. http://www.finanzen.net/index/DAX/30-Werte http://www.finanzen.net/index/DAX/30-Werte The top 30 companies listed on German stock exchange and used for the calculation of the daily trading index. Replace for similar index on other countries. This are the companies usually known as "the enterprise".
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    I was too flippant. It isn't about "shiny toys", it is about being respected enough within an organization to be trusted to self-determine technical direction. It is difficult to hire good developers if you have a reputation for thinking you know best when it comes to very technical decisions like when it does and doesn't make sense to upgrade individual software components. It is definitely a balance, but the grandparent comment struck me as sounding like it was on the too-paternalistic side.
pjmlp 10y ago
Depends on the use case. As I mentioned, it all boils down to how useful it is for the business, not how useful it is to pimp up CVs.

... and that's how technical debt happens.

sanderjd 10y ago

And how "it's so hard for us to hire good developers!" happens.

pjmlp 10y ago
It doesn't happen if the company is willing to pay what they deserve, instead of wanting to have them to work for the same low rates as the ones they are paying to some offshoring consulting partner the other side of the world. Or if they provide a work environment that makes one feel like coming to the office. Good developers care about many factors besides shiny toys.
- izacus 10y ago
  Good developers will also prefer to be well paid and have a good environment while working with modern toys instead of MUMPS infested codebase. (This is not an argument in favor of running after every new technology immediately, but you'll have trouble hiring and keeping good development on a JavaEE 2 environment with SVN build system based on 1990 code practices.)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    > ...but you'll have trouble hiring and keeping good development on a JavaEE 2 environment with SVN build system based on 1990 code practices. You just described many of the projects at DAX level customers. I can assure you that I know quite a good set of developers doing consulting for those customers. The salary and company benefits are more important to them, then using SVN vs GIT, gradle, TDD or whatever everyone in HN talks about.
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      To most developers, interesting problems and technologies are part of the compensation. To attract talent to work for unattractive technology you'll need very attractive salary and benefits. If a developer can't expect to gain transferrable skills from a job, that must be factored in. Jobs where you gain experience nobody else needs are the start of many year-end careers. OTOH, sexy startups often get away with paying less but, in return, offer environments a DAX-level customer simply can't.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        You also need to factor that not everyone wants to relocate just to work in cool technology X as not everyone lives in a SV style technology hub.
    - sanderjd 10y ago
      Sorry, what's a "DAX level customer"?
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        One of these companies. http://www.finanzen.net/index/DAX/30-Werte http://www.finanzen.net/index/DAX/30-Werte The top 30 companies listed on German stock exchange and used for the calculation of the daily trading index. Replace for similar index on other countries. This are the companies usually known as "the enterprise".
- sanderjd 10y ago
  I was too flippant. It isn't about "shiny toys", it is about being respected enough within an organization to be trusted to self-determine technical direction. It is difficult to hire good developers if you have a reputation for thinking you know best when it comes to very technical decisions like when it does and doesn't make sense to upgrade individual software components. It is definitely a balance, but the grandparent comment struck me as sounding like it was on the too-paternalistic side.

pjmlp 10y ago

Depends on the use case. As I mentioned, it all boils down to how useful it is for the business, not how useful it is to pimp up CVs.