5 ms·

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin (I'm 2 minutes from my office, in the most expensive part of the city). Many people mention London in this thr

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin (I'm 2 minutes from my office, in the most expensive part of the city). Many people mention London in this thread and even assuming a 60% raise (not impossible but not so easy either from what I've seen) I'm not sure I could live 2 minutes from work in central London. When I interviewed with Palantir they were offering 700 GBP/month to people who live within 15 minutes of their office, and that's probably going to barely cover 1/3 of your rent. That being said, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin and happy to see that some companies (like mine, SoundCloud, Zalando, ...) are paying quite a bit above market average to attract talent.

drinchev 10y ago
Putting it that way it means that Berlin is a cheap city to rent an apartment. You are totally right about that. What is more interesting is that around EU prices of cars / consumer electronics, etc is relatively the same [1]. Not to mention airplane tickets, holidays which also cost the same in London and Berlin, but guys from London can spend on these more. As a summary IMHO, having a small rent doesn't mean that competition rules shouldn't apply for Berlin and it's talent pool. From my perspective it looks like they don't. Founders put average salaries for their teams in their projection plans and in the end have their hands tied, because "no budget for 80k+ developer". It's a bit sad. Kudos to your companies ( exclude Zalando - sorry ) for putting more money for employees, nevertheless I consider them settled companies already, since they are huge. [1] : http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-world-ranked-from-most-expensive-to-least-chart http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-w...
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  I'm from Geneva, I know how it works :) London just doesn't seem to be so attractive outside FinTech. I have many coworkers from the UK and they all tell me their disposable income is higher over here, despite the lower wages and high taxes. We aren't a startup though, you're definitely right about that.
kafkaesq 10y ago
With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to not have to flinch at that inevitable question, "How much are you currently making?"). Which is what is fundamentally broken with the idea that salaries just need to match local living expenses. 80K salaries would do a lot to bridge the gap for outside talent, and wouldn't cost all that much more -- and in any case not nearly much as the opportunity cost of missing business opportunities due to not being able to assemble performant teams.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin, but let's be realistic, the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. Also, this thread is about European tech hubs. Have a look at average startup salaries in London, Paris, Nordic countries, ...
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more affordable area (and to do interesting work). But a 50% haircut ($120K to $60K) is really a hard pill to swallow for such folks.
    - hocuspocus 10y ago
      > They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software developer works at a hedge fund.

drinchev 10y ago

Putting it that way it means that Berlin is a cheap city to rent an apartment. You are totally right about that. What is more interesting is that around EU prices of cars / consumer electronics, etc is relatively the same [1]. Not to mention airplane tickets, holidays which also cost the same in London and Berlin, but guys from London can spend on these more. As a summary IMHO, having a small rent doesn't mean that competition rules shouldn't apply for Berlin and it's talent pool. From my perspective it looks like they don't. Founders put average salaries for their teams in their projection plans and in the end have their hands tied, because "no budget for 80k+ developer". It's a bit sad. Kudos to your companies ( exclude Zalando - sorry ) for putting more money for employees, nevertheless I consider them settled companies already, since they are huge. [1] : http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-world-ranked-from-most-expensive-to-least-chart http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-w...

hocuspocus 10y ago
I'm from Geneva, I know how it works :) London just doesn't seem to be so attractive outside FinTech. I have many coworkers from the UK and they all tell me their disposable income is higher over here, despite the lower wages and high taxes. We aren't a startup though, you're definitely right about that.

kafkaesq 10y ago

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to not have to flinch at that inevitable question, "How much are you currently making?"). Which is what is fundamentally broken with the idea that salaries just need to match local living expenses. 80K salaries would do a lot to bridge the gap for outside talent, and wouldn't cost all that much more -- and in any case not nearly much as the opportunity cost of missing business opportunities due to not being able to assemble performant teams.

hocuspocus 10y ago
I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin, but let's be realistic, the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. Also, this thread is about European tech hubs. Have a look at average startup salaries in London, Paris, Nordic countries, ...
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more affordable area (and to do interesting work). But a 50% haircut ($120K to $60K) is really a hard pill to swallow for such folks.
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    > They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software developer works at a hedge fund.