7 ms·

Norway–European Union relations

50 points by em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

legulere 10y ago
I found this article to be quite good for showing what the EU-Norway relationship entails: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/ http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-styl...
- digi_owl 10y ago
  One thing to keep in mind is that Norway do have the option to not implement various EU Directives. But the politicians are skittish about doing so, fearing EU sanctions. The most hotly debated directive in recent history was the postal directive. Norway could also have remained outside Shengen, except that there was an existing agreement with Denmark and Sweden (dunno about finland) allowing citizens of either to visit without passports. This agreement would have been ended had Norway not joined Shengen.
  - eivarv 10y ago
    The data retention directive was also pretty controversial.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      That one played out differently though. The major parties were all about getting the DRD implemented, but ended up being constantly postponed because of costs etc. Then it turned into a shit storm within EU and basically vanished. the postal directive on the other hand got a much bigger resistance from the parties.
  - chvid 10y ago
    AFAIK travel without passport in Scandinavia ended with the current refugee crisis.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Generally, no, it did not. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden have had travel without passport since 1952, and Iceland joined 1955, Faroe Islands in 1966. Svalbard (that belongs to Norway) is still excluded. (In Schengen, you still need to have a passport or identity card, even if there are usually no checks; within the Nordic passport union area, that is not necessary for citizens.) There are some checks in the ferries/trains between Denmark and Sweden. But I can step in my car and drive from here to Haparanda to Narvik and no one will stop me to ask for a passport.
      - jdavis703 10y ago
        Exactly this. Or take a plane. The checks aren't even run by official government agents, it's the railroad that does the checks for fear of fines.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        vilhelm_s 10y ago
        There is also an internal check by the Swedish police at Hyllie station on the Swedish side, which is done by government officials.[1] (They said in the long term, they hope to replace this system to instead have Swedish border police on the Danish side, in order to have one check instead of two [2]). But yeah, you can still avoid the ID controls by taking a car across the border instead of the train. [1] http://www.oresundsinstituttet.org/fakta-id-kontrollerna-over-oresund-forlanger-restiden-med-tag-till-sverige-med-mellan-10-och-50-minuter/ http://www.oresundsinstituttet.org/fakta-id-kontrollerna-ove... [2] http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-01-12/sa-ska-id-kontrollerna-forandras http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-01-12/sa-ska-id-kontrollerna-...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - mickronome 10y ago
      Yes and no. There are now ID controls when you travel from Denmark to Norway and Sweden, and from Sweden to Norway. The currently applied laws are temporary in both Norway and Sweden as far as I understand, and also only requires a national ID card or drivers license from one of the Scandinavian countries. There is obviously always a risk that temporary measures become permanent, at least between Sweden and Denmark it is not very likely as the mumber of people crossing the strait each day for work is quite high, and the ID checks increase the travel time significantly.
nraynaud 10y ago
Let's just say that Norway did not leave the EU slamming the door after decades of being the difficult child. I'm not sure this kind of agreement will be extended to the UK.
- gkya 10y ago
  My impression is that the UK will have to face some border problems before negotiating anything with the EU. Scotland may want to secede, Northern Ireland may want to join R. o. Ireland, Gibraltar may want to move into Spain. And then the situation for many overseas territories of the UK will change, as they did gode some privileges from the EU.
  - secfirstmd 10y ago
    Northern Ireland wont vote to reunify in my lifetime. First, they received about 11 billions pounds a year in transfers from the UK budget, which the Republic could never afford. Second, the Unionist population would never vote for it. Third, and this is the bit most people don't realise - polls in the Republic nearly always are a No to reunification - we esp when the financial and security costs are considered.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      But now reunifications means EU, which means funding; while the status quo is... Uncertain. There's a reason Remain won in Northern Ireland.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > Gibraltar may want to move into Spain I can't see that happening. Gibraltar has had that option for years and they strongly reject it. It causes some international tension - Spain think they should have it. For one tiny example there are Wikipedia ArbCom sanctions around Gibraltar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests... And there are many archives on the talk page. (For a thing with a population of 30,000 people and an area of about 6.7 km^2 that's a lot of discussion and sanction)
TillE 10y ago
Norway still allows free movement of EU citizens to their country, which was one of the primary reasons for the Leave vote. There are a few details which differ slightly (you have to leave Norway after several months without finding a job, whereas the UK will merely pull your benefits), but I don't think that's nearly enough to satisfy the demands of those who wish to drastically cut immigration.
- airesQ 10y ago
  Yes, for the UK case it would be an exit in name only. But some in the leave side are for this (e.g. Hannan), with free movement and fees. They are openly conceding that having a tight control over EU migration is not feasible, and that it was an empty campaign promise (and keep in mind that UK does not have all that many migrants, Switzerland, Ireland, Austria, and others have more). Anyway, maybe we will get deadlock. Britain will refuse to invoke article 50 without a deal. And the EU will refuse to negotiate before Britain invokes article 50.
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    > Britain will refuse to invoke article 50 without a deal. And the EU will refuse to negotiate before Britain invokes article 50. Article 50 invocation marks the start of formal negotiations. They can negotiate behind the scenes for as long as they can before political pressure compels them to pull the trigger.
    - airesQ 10y ago
      But the EU can simply refuse to negotiate. I think the EU does want to give the voters what they asked for. And that is Brexit. Out is out. Not EEA.
      - hackerboos 10y ago
        The language of the article suggests otherwise: > 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
secfirstmd 10y ago
At least GCHQ will be outside the EU. Not that it matters and NATO collabortion won't continue.
- peteretep 10y ago
  That's ok, Germany are desperate to join FIVEEYES.
surfmike 10y ago
Norwegians pay for access to the common market (I think even more per capita than other EU countries), still participate in Schengen, and have no say in the EU. Hardly seems like what the Brexiters wanted. But an arrangement like that might allow UK to be more free to negotiate trade deals with Asia and other parts of the world and have a bit more flexibility in their immigration policy than they had under the EU.
gabimaeztu 10y ago
I do not understand how British elderly doesn't see the damage they are doing to their younger population... It seems pretty obvious that even if you haven't been able to adapt to globalisation you should at least not interfere in the way of the newcomers
- dingaling 10y ago
  Globalization is orthogonal to what the EU has become, and whatever it intends to become.

50 points by em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

I found this article to be quite good for showing what the EU-Norway relationship entails: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/ http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-styl...

digi_owl 10y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that Norway do have the option to not implement various EU Directives. But the politicians are skittish about doing so, fearing EU sanctions. The most hotly debated directive in recent history was the postal directive. Norway could also have remained outside Shengen, except that there was an existing agreement with Denmark and Sweden (dunno about finland) allowing citizens of either to visit without passports. This agreement would have been ended had Norway not joined Shengen.
- eivarv 10y ago
  The data retention directive was also pretty controversial.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    That one played out differently though. The major parties were all about getting the DRD implemented, but ended up being constantly postponed because of costs etc. Then it turned into a shit storm within EU and basically vanished. the postal directive on the other hand got a much bigger resistance from the parties.
- chvid 10y ago
  AFAIK travel without passport in Scandinavia ended with the current refugee crisis.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Generally, no, it did not. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden have had travel without passport since 1952, and Iceland joined 1955, Faroe Islands in 1966. Svalbard (that belongs to Norway) is still excluded. (In Schengen, you still need to have a passport or identity card, even if there are usually no checks; within the Nordic passport union area, that is not necessary for citizens.) There are some checks in the ferries/trains between Denmark and Sweden. But I can step in my car and drive from here to Haparanda to Narvik and no one will stop me to ask for a passport.
    - jdavis703 10y ago
      Exactly this. Or take a plane. The checks aren't even run by official government agents, it's the railroad that does the checks for fear of fines.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - vilhelm_s 10y ago
        There is also an internal check by the Swedish police at Hyllie station on the Swedish side, which is done by government officials.[1] (They said in the long term, they hope to replace this system to instead have Swedish border police on the Danish side, in order to have one check instead of two [2]). But yeah, you can still avoid the ID controls by taking a car across the border instead of the train. [1] http://www.oresundsinstituttet.org/fakta-id-kontrollerna-over-oresund-forlanger-restiden-med-tag-till-sverige-med-mellan-10-och-50-minuter/ http://www.oresundsinstituttet.org/fakta-id-kontrollerna-ove... [2] http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-01-12/sa-ska-id-kontrollerna-forandras http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-01-12/sa-ska-id-kontrollerna-...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mickronome 10y ago
    Yes and no. There are now ID controls when you travel from Denmark to Norway and Sweden, and from Sweden to Norway. The currently applied laws are temporary in both Norway and Sweden as far as I understand, and also only requires a national ID card or drivers license from one of the Scandinavian countries. There is obviously always a risk that temporary measures become permanent, at least between Sweden and Denmark it is not very likely as the mumber of people crossing the strait each day for work is quite high, and the ID checks increase the travel time significantly.

nraynaud 10y ago

Let's just say that Norway did not leave the EU slamming the door after decades of being the difficult child. I'm not sure this kind of agreement will be extended to the UK.

gkya 10y ago
My impression is that the UK will have to face some border problems before negotiating anything with the EU. Scotland may want to secede, Northern Ireland may want to join R. o. Ireland, Gibraltar may want to move into Spain. And then the situation for many overseas territories of the UK will change, as they did gode some privileges from the EU.
- secfirstmd 10y ago
  Northern Ireland wont vote to reunify in my lifetime. First, they received about 11 billions pounds a year in transfers from the UK budget, which the Republic could never afford. Second, the Unionist population would never vote for it. Third, and this is the bit most people don't realise - polls in the Republic nearly always are a No to reunification - we esp when the financial and security costs are considered.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    But now reunifications means EU, which means funding; while the status quo is... Uncertain. There's a reason Remain won in Northern Ireland.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > Gibraltar may want to move into Spain I can't see that happening. Gibraltar has had that option for years and they strongly reject it. It causes some international tension - Spain think they should have it. For one tiny example there are Wikipedia ArbCom sanctions around Gibraltar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests... And there are many archives on the talk page. (For a thing with a population of 30,000 people and an area of about 6.7 km^2 that's a lot of discussion and sanction)

TillE 10y ago

Norway still allows free movement of EU citizens to their country, which was one of the primary reasons for the Leave vote. There are a few details which differ slightly (you have to leave Norway after several months without finding a job, whereas the UK will merely pull your benefits), but I don't think that's nearly enough to satisfy the demands of those who wish to drastically cut immigration.

airesQ 10y ago
Yes, for the UK case it would be an exit in name only. But some in the leave side are for this (e.g. Hannan), with free movement and fees. They are openly conceding that having a tight control over EU migration is not feasible, and that it was an empty campaign promise (and keep in mind that UK does not have all that many migrants, Switzerland, Ireland, Austria, and others have more). Anyway, maybe we will get deadlock. Britain will refuse to invoke article 50 without a deal. And the EU will refuse to negotiate before Britain invokes article 50.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  > Britain will refuse to invoke article 50 without a deal. And the EU will refuse to negotiate before Britain invokes article 50. Article 50 invocation marks the start of formal negotiations. They can negotiate behind the scenes for as long as they can before political pressure compels them to pull the trigger.
  - airesQ 10y ago
    But the EU can simply refuse to negotiate. I think the EU does want to give the voters what they asked for. And that is Brexit. Out is out. Not EEA.
    - hackerboos 10y ago
      The language of the article suggests otherwise: > 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

secfirstmd 10y ago

At least GCHQ will be outside the EU. Not that it matters and NATO collabortion won't continue.

peteretep 10y ago
That's ok, Germany are desperate to join FIVEEYES.

surfmike 10y ago

Norwegians pay for access to the common market (I think even more per capita than other EU countries), still participate in Schengen, and have no say in the EU. Hardly seems like what the Brexiters wanted. But an arrangement like that might allow UK to be more free to negotiate trade deals with Asia and other parts of the world and have a bit more flexibility in their immigration policy than they had under the EU.

gabimaeztu 10y ago

I do not understand how British elderly doesn't see the damage they are doing to their younger population... It seems pretty obvious that even if you haven't been able to adapt to globalisation you should at least not interfere in the way of the newcomers

dingaling 10y ago
Globalization is orthogonal to what the EU has become, and whatever it intends to become.