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I've been living in Berlin since 3 years ( doing freelance web-development & my own "entrepreneurship" adventures ). IMHO Berlin might sound cool as a startup

I've been living in Berlin since 3 years ( doing freelance web-development & my own "entrepreneurship" adventures ). IMHO Berlin might sound cool as a startup hub, but there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low than average. It's true that Berlin is cheaper than London ( and overall Germany ), but definitely is not so cheap to attract good IT people to join your journey with those numbers. On top of that, giving stock-options here is a bit hard ( legally ), so companies are struggling to offer some "virtual shares" of an employee pool as a compensation, which will never make you as rich as if you are one of the first employees of a unicorn. Everything else from offices, meet ups, parties, nice food, international city is here and I think is much better than overcrowded and expensive London ( That's why I'm still here :) ).

zerr 10y ago
> there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low. Exactly. You can't whine about the lack of talent and at the same time offer 50K-60K EUR to senior engineers... I'd say, "cheap labour" is (was?) the main reason one might find Berlin attractive.
- AndreyErmakov 10y ago
  I can confirm this state of things. The payment is indeed very low throughout German companies. For an outsider to come to Germany and attempt to set up a life there from scratch, they would need at least 60-70K (for medium towns) and at least 80-90K for places like Munich, Stuttgart or Frankfurt, probably even more. These are the numbers from several years ago, today everything has become much more expensive. And for a family person even more than that. Speaking from experience, I lived and worked in Germany for several years, and eventually I had to leave. One of the main reasons was the low payment, I was basically struggling to make the ends meet (with my modest salary of only 40K). In the end I decided I had better things to do with my time and returned home. I am aware of other people who finished their studies, had a look at the local job market, did the math and didn't even bother to try things out. The other reason that pushes talent away from the German market is lack of recognition. There is some unhealthy division of labor that is prevalent in German companies. Basically, native Germans are deemed to be the brain center of the entire operation and foreign specialists are regarded as grunt workers who have little say in the process or influence over things (as well as practically no opportunities to rise up in the ranks). I can't see any real talent being enticed by this general framework. As a resume, German companies need to pay much better and need to open up to other people and other cultures, if they want to become a real startup hub. You can't build a rich and vibrant place full of progressive ideas around a close-minded mentality and with people trying to survive on a diet. With the present state of things, they might trick some talent into joining on a case-by-case basis but most likely that relationship will not last. Do I count myself as a talent? I really can't say. I'm an educated person (I have both Russian and German academic degrees), also enthusiastic and entrepreneurial type, full-stack developer, I can do complete projects and have ideas of my own which I've been trying to turn into my own products. I suppose I could have contributed a lot in a receptive environment, but my experience was that nobody really needed any unsolicited input or contribution, you just implement the things as you're told and the thinking is done by the other guys. So I took my ideas elsewhere. This all truly is a shame, because on the whole Germany is a fantastic country with lots of nice and smart people. Yet there are certain [mental] barriers that prevent it from becoming something more. I very much hope people eventually remove those obstacles and then the IT industry will begin to flourish in Germany. And yes, Berlin really is a cool place to live in. If it were to become a startup hub, then it would be just awesome.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin (I'm 2 minutes from my office, in the most expensive part of the city). Many people mention London in this thread and even assuming a 60% raise (not impossible but not so easy either from what I've seen) I'm not sure I could live 2 minutes from work in central London. When I interviewed with Palantir they were offering 700 GBP/month to people who live within 15 minutes of their office, and that's probably going to barely cover 1/3 of your rent. That being said, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin and happy to see that some companies (like mine, SoundCloud, Zalando, ...) are paying quite a bit above market average to attract talent.
  - drinchev 10y ago
    Putting it that way it means that Berlin is a cheap city to rent an apartment. You are totally right about that. What is more interesting is that around EU prices of cars / consumer electronics, etc is relatively the same [1]. Not to mention airplane tickets, holidays which also cost the same in London and Berlin, but guys from London can spend on these more. As a summary IMHO, having a small rent doesn't mean that competition rules shouldn't apply for Berlin and it's talent pool. From my perspective it looks like they don't. Founders put average salaries for their teams in their projection plans and in the end have their hands tied, because "no budget for 80k+ developer". It's a bit sad. Kudos to your companies ( exclude Zalando - sorry ) for putting more money for employees, nevertheless I consider them settled companies already, since they are huge. [1] : http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-world-ranked-from-most-expensive-to-least-chart http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-w...
    - hocuspocus 10y ago
      I'm from Geneva, I know how it works :) London just doesn't seem to be so attractive outside FinTech. I have many coworkers from the UK and they all tell me their disposable income is higher over here, despite the lower wages and high taxes. We aren't a startup though, you're definitely right about that.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to not have to flinch at that inevitable question, "How much are you currently making?"). Which is what is fundamentally broken with the idea that salaries just need to match local living expenses. 80K salaries would do a lot to bridge the gap for outside talent, and wouldn't cost all that much more -- and in any case not nearly much as the opportunity cost of missing business opportunities due to not being able to assemble performant teams.
CM30 10y ago
The low payment thing might be a general European issue when it comes to the tech industry. If you're ever wondering why Europe doesn't really have much of an equivalent of Silicon Valley yet, well maybe the wages being about half of their equivalents in the valley might have something to do with it.
- yulaow 10y ago
  That's true, but I would also add that in Europe you have a work culture against long work days/week, and it very rare to be asked to work more than 38/40h/w... and if you are asked to typically you are well compensated (1.5x/2x your normal wage x hour). Also vacation days are typically at least 5/6 weeks. I mean, yes the market need to improve wages, but considering also the different work culture they are not _that_ low compared to the us ones.
  - CM30 10y ago
    That's a good point, though I wonder if it points to a mindset difference between tech/startup folks in the US and those in Europe. People who work for US startups seem to be very driven to succeed, regardless of the costs. It's seen as encouraged to constantly work, regardless if if the stress might cause you to keel over before you're thirty. In Europe, there still seems to be an 'eight hours a day is fine' mentality, even in startups and small businesses. The idea that having a family and life and other activities is as important as becoming rich. Maybe the mindset differences can be summed up as 'work yourself to death now but hope to retire early' or 'work less hours but work for more of your life'.
  - uola 10y ago
    Yes, if you factor in things like student loans, vacation, housing costs, working conditions, transportation etc. you'll make about the same in northen europe as in SV. Not including more management level positions at large tech companies.

zerr 10y ago

> there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low. Exactly. You can't whine about the lack of talent and at the same time offer 50K-60K EUR to senior engineers... I'd say, "cheap labour" is (was?) the main reason one might find Berlin attractive.

AndreyErmakov 10y ago
I can confirm this state of things. The payment is indeed very low throughout German companies. For an outsider to come to Germany and attempt to set up a life there from scratch, they would need at least 60-70K (for medium towns) and at least 80-90K for places like Munich, Stuttgart or Frankfurt, probably even more. These are the numbers from several years ago, today everything has become much more expensive. And for a family person even more than that. Speaking from experience, I lived and worked in Germany for several years, and eventually I had to leave. One of the main reasons was the low payment, I was basically struggling to make the ends meet (with my modest salary of only 40K). In the end I decided I had better things to do with my time and returned home. I am aware of other people who finished their studies, had a look at the local job market, did the math and didn't even bother to try things out. The other reason that pushes talent away from the German market is lack of recognition. There is some unhealthy division of labor that is prevalent in German companies. Basically, native Germans are deemed to be the brain center of the entire operation and foreign specialists are regarded as grunt workers who have little say in the process or influence over things (as well as practically no opportunities to rise up in the ranks). I can't see any real talent being enticed by this general framework. As a resume, German companies need to pay much better and need to open up to other people and other cultures, if they want to become a real startup hub. You can't build a rich and vibrant place full of progressive ideas around a close-minded mentality and with people trying to survive on a diet. With the present state of things, they might trick some talent into joining on a case-by-case basis but most likely that relationship will not last. Do I count myself as a talent? I really can't say. I'm an educated person (I have both Russian and German academic degrees), also enthusiastic and entrepreneurial type, full-stack developer, I can do complete projects and have ideas of my own which I've been trying to turn into my own products. I suppose I could have contributed a lot in a receptive environment, but my experience was that nobody really needed any unsolicited input or contribution, you just implement the things as you're told and the thinking is done by the other guys. So I took my ideas elsewhere. This all truly is a shame, because on the whole Germany is a fantastic country with lots of nice and smart people. Yet there are certain [mental] barriers that prevent it from becoming something more. I very much hope people eventually remove those obstacles and then the IT industry will begin to flourish in Germany. And yes, Berlin really is a cool place to live in. If it were to become a startup hub, then it would be just awesome.
hocuspocus 10y ago
With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin (I'm 2 minutes from my office, in the most expensive part of the city). Many people mention London in this thread and even assuming a 60% raise (not impossible but not so easy either from what I've seen) I'm not sure I could live 2 minutes from work in central London. When I interviewed with Palantir they were offering 700 GBP/month to people who live within 15 minutes of their office, and that's probably going to barely cover 1/3 of your rent. That being said, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin and happy to see that some companies (like mine, SoundCloud, Zalando, ...) are paying quite a bit above market average to attract talent.
- drinchev 10y ago
  Putting it that way it means that Berlin is a cheap city to rent an apartment. You are totally right about that. What is more interesting is that around EU prices of cars / consumer electronics, etc is relatively the same [1]. Not to mention airplane tickets, holidays which also cost the same in London and Berlin, but guys from London can spend on these more. As a summary IMHO, having a small rent doesn't mean that competition rules shouldn't apply for Berlin and it's talent pool. From my perspective it looks like they don't. Founders put average salaries for their teams in their projection plans and in the end have their hands tied, because "no budget for 80k+ developer". It's a bit sad. Kudos to your companies ( exclude Zalando - sorry ) for putting more money for employees, nevertheless I consider them settled companies already, since they are huge. [1] : http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-world-ranked-from-most-expensive-to-least-chart http://www.iclarified.com/55272/iphone-6-prices-around-the-w...
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    I'm from Geneva, I know how it works :) London just doesn't seem to be so attractive outside FinTech. I have many coworkers from the UK and they all tell me their disposable income is higher over here, despite the lower wages and high taxes. We aren't a startup though, you're definitely right about that.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to not have to flinch at that inevitable question, "How much are you currently making?"). Which is what is fundamentally broken with the idea that salaries just need to match local living expenses. 80K salaries would do a lot to bridge the gap for outside talent, and wouldn't cost all that much more -- and in any case not nearly much as the opportunity cost of missing business opportunities due to not being able to assemble performant teams.

CM30 10y ago

The low payment thing might be a general European issue when it comes to the tech industry. If you're ever wondering why Europe doesn't really have much of an equivalent of Silicon Valley yet, well maybe the wages being about half of their equivalents in the valley might have something to do with it.

yulaow 10y ago
That's true, but I would also add that in Europe you have a work culture against long work days/week, and it very rare to be asked to work more than 38/40h/w... and if you are asked to typically you are well compensated (1.5x/2x your normal wage x hour). Also vacation days are typically at least 5/6 weeks. I mean, yes the market need to improve wages, but considering also the different work culture they are not _that_ low compared to the us ones.
- CM30 10y ago
  That's a good point, though I wonder if it points to a mindset difference between tech/startup folks in the US and those in Europe. People who work for US startups seem to be very driven to succeed, regardless of the costs. It's seen as encouraged to constantly work, regardless if if the stress might cause you to keel over before you're thirty. In Europe, there still seems to be an 'eight hours a day is fine' mentality, even in startups and small businesses. The idea that having a family and life and other activities is as important as becoming rich. Maybe the mindset differences can be summed up as 'work yourself to death now but hope to retire early' or 'work less hours but work for more of your life'.
- uola 10y ago
  Yes, if you factor in things like student loans, vacation, housing costs, working conditions, transportation etc. you'll make about the same in northen europe as in SV. Not including more management level positions at large tech companies.