9 ms·

Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

33 points by DrNuke 10y ago

As you know for sure, the UK chose to leave the EU on Thursday. As an immediate consequence, uncertainty is going to dominate for weeks or months until they realise their next move: sharp exit, stand-by, second referendum maybe. My question to you HNers is pretty simple: where do you think the next European hub will be, that is to say the new London, if any. I have had a quick survey within my network and the majority say it is going to be Berlin, also because there is something there already and critical mass will be easier to reach within the very heart of the EU. What do you think about? Thanks.

kator 10y ago
IMHO It's too soon to tell. If several other states do the same the EU will become a disjointed mess. Some polls say as many as 43% of Germans feel more power should come home. If other member states show intention to leave it could ignite a surge of support for Germany to do the same. Then Berlin would just be another really nice place to visit but, isolated in German laws and the same chaos the UK is about to experience. The real challenge is we live in very fragile times and the EU is like a big Jenga game, as parts start to slip away the entire thing could easily topple and drive Europe back into a chaotic state not seen in many people's lifetimes.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  Actually, it is the other way round: 69% of Germans wanted Britain to stay. Since the beginning of the year support for the EU rose and now for the first time a majority of Germans (45%) think that the EU has more advantages than disadvantages (38% think both advantages and disadvantages, 14% more disadvantages) [0]. Also: If you look at the numbers also from the Brexit votum, you will see that young people are very much pro EU. [0]: http://www.heute.de/mehrheit-eu-wird-wegen-brexit-nicht-zerbrechen-fussball-em-hoffnung-auf-titelgewinn-gestiegen-44100560.html http://www.heute.de/mehrheit-eu-wird-wegen-brexit-nicht-zerb... (German)
marvel_boy 10y ago
London is and will be the start-up hub. Barcelona is also is a good place to start a business, but London has a lot a talent form around the world. No brexit can change that.
- BjoernKW 10y ago
  > London has a lot a talent form around the world. No brexit can change that. Actually, quite likely it will. One of the main arguments of the "Leave" campaign was curtailing immigration as in effectively reducing it to zero. Now, of course this isn't actually possible and Farage and others are already sheepishly back-pedaling on most of their bold claims. If this whole Brexit affair is supposed to make any remote sense at all there will be limits on immigration, because if the UK will still allow free movement of people and goods from the EU what's the point of leaving in the first place? Limits on immigration will mean less talented people in the city. It's as simple as that. Besides, people from the EU who're already living and working in London either will have to leave or apply for permanent resident permits. Only time will tell how hard those will be to come by but it'll be at least a major hassle.
  - phatfish 10y ago
    Immigration was the main argument because that is what people wanted to hear, and got the opportunists like Boris a shot at more power. In reality it is not going to happen. 1. When have politicians ever followed through with a promise they made? 2. Not even the Brexit bunch are stupid enough to intentionally cripple the economy, especially as immigration was an issue for a demographic of voter the Tories actually care nothing about. What the UK could do is put more restrictions on migrants without a job and what in work benefits they can access. Reforms to benefits for migrants were a part of the deal Cameron got from the EU earlier this year -- which is now void -- so Brexit really changes nothing there. Maybe the UK could be stricter with migrants out of work and still get the trade deals.
    - letitleak 10y ago
      The British as non-EU can't get a better deal than the Swiss as a non EU Schengen area member.. I think the British will either lose more control of immigration from this vote or be pretty crippled by poor EU trade agreements leading to the US learning to deal direct with the mainland.
  - zhte415 10y ago
greenspot 10y ago
London. Not Berlin. Berlin is affordable but that's it. You won't find the best people, the best teams and a good legal framework. The UK has a better legal system. The UK Ltd. is way superior to the German Ltd. and soon they will move away from the EU inherited laws which are too much market regulating. Especially consumer protection and labour law are just a big bummer for many and for startups in particular. Besides, just check total fundings, exits, average fundings sizes, etc. then you see the difference. Berlin based startups got much moeny the recent years but slowly people question again the ecosystem since exits are missing. Ok the city doesn't have the startup history like a Valley or London but still. Clear successes are missing. The only huge thing was Zalando's IPO.
- EiZei 10y ago
  You are going to have to abide by those "bummer" consumer protection laws if you are going to sell goods or services to the common market which coincidentally will become harder if the UK really decides to go forth with this lunacy.
  - AndreyErmakov 10y ago
    >> You are going to have to abide by those "bummer" consumer protection laws... If you're dealing directly with consumers then yes. If it's B2B then no, you won't have to. And there are lots of startups offering services for businesses only.
  - greenspot 10y ago
    > goods or services to the common market goods yes and only if you produce them, services no anyway nobody would send stuff from UK to other countries even if the were in the EU; you would found country organization like you did before; so I won't see any changes, just for producers but most startups are not producing goods or to think further most companies in these expensive countries don't manufacture anything.
drinchev 10y ago
I've been living in Berlin since 3 years ( doing freelance web-development & my own "entrepreneurship" adventures ). IMHO Berlin might sound cool as a startup hub, but there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low than average. It's true that Berlin is cheaper than London ( and overall Germany ), but definitely is not so cheap to attract good IT people to join your journey with those numbers. On top of that, giving stock-options here is a bit hard ( legally ), so companies are struggling to offer some "virtual shares" of an employee pool as a compensation, which will never make you as rich as if you are one of the first employees of a unicorn. Everything else from offices, meet ups, parties, nice food, international city is here and I think is much better than overcrowded and expensive London ( That's why I'm still here :) ).
- zerr 10y ago
  > there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low. Exactly. You can't whine about the lack of talent and at the same time offer 50K-60K EUR to senior engineers... I'd say, "cheap labour" is (was?) the main reason one might find Berlin attractive.
  - AndreyErmakov 10y ago
    I can confirm this state of things. The payment is indeed very low throughout German companies. For an outsider to come to Germany and attempt to set up a life there from scratch, they would need at least 60-70K (for medium towns) and at least 80-90K for places like Munich, Stuttgart or Frankfurt, probably even more. These are the numbers from several years ago, today everything has become much more expensive. And for a family person even more than that. Speaking from experience, I lived and worked in Germany for several years, and eventually I had to leave. One of the main reasons was the low payment, I was basically struggling to make the ends meet (with my modest salary of only 40K). In the end I decided I had better things to do with my time and returned home. I am aware of other people who finished their studies, had a look at the local job market, did the math and didn't even bother to try things out. The other reason that pushes talent away from the German market is lack of recognition. There is some unhealthy division of labor that is prevalent in German companies. Basically, native Germans are deemed to be the brain center of the entire operation and foreign specialists are regarded as grunt workers who have little say in the process or influence over things (as well as practically no opportunities to rise up in the ranks). I can't see any real talent being enticed by this general framework. As a resume, German companies need to pay much better and need to open up to other people and other cultures, if they want to become a real startup hub. You can't build a rich and vibrant place full of progressive ideas around a close-minded mentality and with people trying to survive on a diet. With the present state of things, they might trick some talent into joining on a case-by-case basis but most likely that relationship will not last. Do I count myself as a talent? I really can't say. I'm an educated person (I have both Russian and German academic degrees), also enthusiastic and entrepreneurial type, full-stack developer, I can do complete projects and have ideas of my own which I've been trying to turn into my own products. I suppose I could have contributed a lot in a receptive environment, but my experience was that nobody really needed any unsolicited input or contribution, you just implement the things as you're told and the thinking is done by the other guys. So I took my ideas elsewhere. This all truly is a shame, because on the whole Germany is a fantastic country with lots of nice and smart people. Yet there are certain [mental] barriers that prevent it from becoming something more. I very much hope people eventually remove those obstacles and then the IT industry will begin to flourish in Germany. And yes, Berlin really is a cool place to live in. If it were to become a startup hub, then it would be just awesome.
LuisFerreira 10y ago
Lisbon will be the place;),nice people, lots of talented people,english is common language,food . http://rethink.beta-i.pt/2016/05/04/report-lisbon-startup-scene/ http://rethink.beta-i.pt/2016/05/04/report-lisbon-startup-sc...
- wallflower 10y ago
  From the Airbnb thread http://www.buala.org/pt/cidade/quem-vai-poder-morar-em-lisboa http://www.buala.org/pt/cidade/quem-vai-poder-morar-em-lisbo...
  - uola 10y ago
    Yes, unfortunetly I think it's very likely that costs will grow faster than the startup scene in Lisbon. Loosing much of it's attraction.
znpy 10y ago
Dublin ? It's right there, many big companies already have their offices there, English is the official spoken language, it is basically a far as uk to reach from the point of view of any European citizen, and it is cheaper (I guess). Taxation is lower BUT actually enforced: there is no such thing as City of London corporation, isle of man or crap like that. I guess it is less "developed" than London, but becoming the next European tech hub might be a great drive for development.
- znpy 10y ago
  The sad thing about Germany is their loathe for the English language: you basically cannot expect to fully live there without learning German. ATMs and self-dispensers (example: bus/subway ticket machines) are poorly translated to English, for example. For example, bus/subway stops are only announced in German, not in English. In Milan, Italy, bus and subway stops are announced in both Italian and English, public transport works very well in my opinion. It's a pity that doing business in Italy is basically a rat race, taxation is ridiculously high (compared to the services and services level you get) and there is a crazy bureaucracy, otherwise Milan would be an awesome place for a tech hub.
  - AndreyErmakov 10y ago
    Actually, you can live there quite nicely without German. The basic vocabulary to get around easily is rather small. What you can't do without German is to integrate in the society. Which is pretty tough even if you speak German. Without it you're basically disconnected.
  - mstipetic 10y ago
    I've been living in Berlin as an expat for almost 2 years now and absolutely everybody speaks English. I'm actually having trouble learning German because of how ubiquitous it is. The ticket machines are really simple, select region, select type of ticket and input money, how badly can they translate it? As for the bus/subway, they stops are announced in German, but how hard is it to figure out "Nächste Station," and even in more complicated cases you can pick up the few words you need to understand. Even the hobos speak English. Startup meetups, events, investor talks all happen in English, I work in a company where the official language is English, as is in most larger IT companies. For basic communication you should also put in a little effort to learn a few German phrases (which is the polite thing to do) for necessities, and you'll have no problems.
niftich 10y ago
European hub? Hub of what? There's no Silicon Valley in the EU, so both talent and industry is decentralized. Brexit won't change this. London will remain an important node, but without additional incentives (ie. subsidies) no single place will take over the roles that it fulfills now inside the EU's talent market.

AndreyErmakov 10y ago

This. The situation is completely different for an outsider than for somebody who's already made their move or for a local person. My experience has been that German bosses in general do not comprehend how hard and expensive it is for somebody from far away to come to Germany and organize their life in there. A lot of people arranged for everything they need in life years ago and already forgotten about it. With the young generation, many live with their parents, they basically have their own free apartment in the parent's house, they have a car purchased for them and some money in their bank account to cover their immediate needs. A very convenient setup which makes them oblivious to how much those things actually cost in the real world. It happened many times when in a conversation with them I shared my experiences and practically the universal reaction I was receiving from them was along the lines of: "Really? Now, that's tough. Good luck to you then." If you come to a new country you by definition have nothing and you have to procure everything from the most basic tools to whatever you're going to need as a professional. Consider what you have to purchase/pay for: Rent an apartment, pay the security deposit, pay the agent commission, purchase a set of furniture for the entire apartment (most are offered empty and unlivable), purchase the household appliances. Unless you fancy living with roommates, eating junk food and sleeping on the floor. If you're a software engineer, you're most likely going to be buying a workstation, a couple of monitors, a large desk, an ergonomic chair, a printer, a scanner and whatever else you need. Unless you plan not to do anything programming-related beyond office hours. If you're going to a location where the public transportation system is not well developed or if they like to call strikes there all the time, you'll also need to purchase a car and get yourself a local driving license. Unless you enjoy losing hours in commute and regularly being late for work. See how the numbers quickly add up. And somebody's got to pay for all this fun. Notice how I'm talking about the basic stuff only that practically every person would need. I haven't even gone into family/childcare expenses. I remember having a conversation with my boss about all of this. I was trying to get across the point that the amount I was receiving was making it impossible for me to set up a life at that location. To which I was told if I was unable to rent an apartment then I should consider renting a room instead and share the apartment with others. Now, that's positive. Definitely a thing to say to a talent who has multiple other options and the whole world open. And since the same level of payment was being hold firmly by all other German companies I negotiated with, I finally made the choice to move out. That probably explains why there's so little true talent you can find in Germany. The treatment just isn't good.