4 ms·

Kind of weaksauce. One review 50 years ago doesn't override all the work done since, particularly on OCEAN, showing high longitudinal stability of personality t

by aab0 10y ago

Kind of weaksauce. One review 50 years ago doesn't override all the work done since, particularly on OCEAN, showing high longitudinal stability of personality traits when measurement error is considered. (What's more interesting is the behavioral genetics of that; it seems that this stability is at least in part due to the stability of genetic influences on personality.) It's also kind of silly to point to prisoners as an example: violent crime always declines with age.

CuriouslyC 10y ago
Just because personality doesn't frequently change doesn't mean it is impossible, it is just really hard. If it happens with one in a few hundred individuals, most researchers are going to view it as an anomalous outlier and discard or ignore it. I can assure you with complete confidence that your personality is incredibly malleable. I could go on at length about my personal experience (which is quite dramatic) but since I enjoy my privacy I'll just pass along a funny story about massive personality change induced by brain injury: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2130900/Chris-Birch-Rugby-player-woke-gay-stroke-says-hes-happiest-hes-been.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2130900/Chris-Birc...
- api_or_ipa 10y ago
  > Just because personality doesn't frequently change doesn't mean it is impossible, it is just really hard. If it happens with one in a few hundred individuals, most researchers are going to view it as an anomalous outlier and discard or ignore it. I view this as a failure of modern statistically driven social sciences. Just because it happens to only a few in a hundred people, doesn't mean it's an anomalous behaviour. People are messy. When put in differing circumstances, people show amazing plasticity in their behaviour. And controlling for all those social and biological pressures is very hard to do.
  - threatofrain 10y ago
    I think researchers have a clear distinction that populations are an altogether different phenomena than individuals. This is something that the public often confuses, as demonstrated when somebody rebuts a statement about population attributes with a personal refutation. This is a failure to argue on the same phenomena. Researchers are also aware that personality changes population-wise with age, and also that individuals also experience personality changes -- but generally not in a medically interesting way in the sense of a reliable and precise intervention to effect positive changes. I'm also reminded of studies on the transferability of personality traits with adopted children (no significant correlation! amazing! same correlation with biological parents compared to those children raised by their biological parents), or reared-apart monozygotic twin studies, or reared-apart dizygotic twin studies, and so on. The collective portrait of many data points suggests a set of stable biological factors to personality, as opposed to personal experience.
    - CuriouslyC 10y ago
      Think of your personality a barren landscape, which starts out with very, very minor depressions and irregularities. These depressions and irregularities might so so small they're not even be perceptible to the average person walking across it. Over many years, rain will erode these minor features into gullies, and if conditions are right, you can even end up with canyons. The course of a mighty river can be entirely determined by minor irregularities in the starting landscape. Of course, if you took a decent sized plow and cut a channel through the landscape early enough, you could direct the development of the river to exactly where you wanted it. If you wait too long, redirecting the river becomes a major engineering task; involved, but still entirely doable.
      - threatofrain 10y ago
        I mentioned a few studies, but worded them poorly, but I wonder what you think about the fact that there's no significant correlation in personality traits between foster parents and their adopted children (fascinating, no?), and that these children have the same correlation with their biological parents regardless if they are raised in the same household or with foster parents. Shouldn't the unique experience of an entirely different household have some effect on personality?
  - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
    Seriously. "Entrepreneurship doesn't happen. The data are very clear on this. Most people who start businesses fail."
- aab0 10y ago
  If you have to appeal to rare cases such as traumatic brain injury, then it is indeed 'really hard' and not of much interest theoretically or practically; the mind is what the brain does, so that massive damage can cause changes is exactly what one would have predicted already, just as one would predict that intelligence, memory, happiness, language and other cognitive traits can be changed by massive damage... (Even more massive damage can radically change one's personality through a process called 'death'.) It's not that it's an 'outlier' to be discarded, it's that it's not important if it's that rare.
  - CuriouslyC 10y ago
    I used that as an example because it's so radical as to be irrefutable, and pretty amusing. Massive personality change does not require traumatic brain injury. Just because something is really hard does not mean it is not of much interest theoretically or practically. Everything that is meaningful in human endeavor has been "really hard." I think that it is actually really important to study and understand personality change. Frankly, a lot of people have negative, (self)destructive personalities, and they would be much better served with positive, constructive personalities. Maybe if we understand how people change, we could come up with a consistent, efficient method to help those people, rather than shrugging and saying "haters gonna hate."
    - mike4ty4 10y ago
      The $6m question is, is willpower itself limited by genetics? What happens then, if the ability to exert the hard effort to change the personality is itself genetically limited?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]

by aab0 10y ago

CuriouslyC 10y ago

Just because personality doesn't frequently change doesn't mean it is impossible, it is just really hard. If it happens with one in a few hundred individuals, most researchers are going to view it as an anomalous outlier and discard or ignore it. I can assure you with complete confidence that your personality is incredibly malleable. I could go on at length about my personal experience (which is quite dramatic) but since I enjoy my privacy I'll just pass along a funny story about massive personality change induced by brain injury: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2130900/Chris-Birch-Rugby-player-woke-gay-stroke-says-hes-happiest-hes-been.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2130900/Chris-Birc...

api_or_ipa 10y ago
> Just because personality doesn't frequently change doesn't mean it is impossible, it is just really hard. If it happens with one in a few hundred individuals, most researchers are going to view it as an anomalous outlier and discard or ignore it. I view this as a failure of modern statistically driven social sciences. Just because it happens to only a few in a hundred people, doesn't mean it's an anomalous behaviour. People are messy. When put in differing circumstances, people show amazing plasticity in their behaviour. And controlling for all those social and biological pressures is very hard to do.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  I think researchers have a clear distinction that populations are an altogether different phenomena than individuals. This is something that the public often confuses, as demonstrated when somebody rebuts a statement about population attributes with a personal refutation. This is a failure to argue on the same phenomena. Researchers are also aware that personality changes population-wise with age, and also that individuals also experience personality changes -- but generally not in a medically interesting way in the sense of a reliable and precise intervention to effect positive changes. I'm also reminded of studies on the transferability of personality traits with adopted children (no significant correlation! amazing! same correlation with biological parents compared to those children raised by their biological parents), or reared-apart monozygotic twin studies, or reared-apart dizygotic twin studies, and so on. The collective portrait of many data points suggests a set of stable biological factors to personality, as opposed to personal experience.
  - CuriouslyC 10y ago
    Think of your personality a barren landscape, which starts out with very, very minor depressions and irregularities. These depressions and irregularities might so so small they're not even be perceptible to the average person walking across it. Over many years, rain will erode these minor features into gullies, and if conditions are right, you can even end up with canyons. The course of a mighty river can be entirely determined by minor irregularities in the starting landscape. Of course, if you took a decent sized plow and cut a channel through the landscape early enough, you could direct the development of the river to exactly where you wanted it. If you wait too long, redirecting the river becomes a major engineering task; involved, but still entirely doable.
    - threatofrain 10y ago
      I mentioned a few studies, but worded them poorly, but I wonder what you think about the fact that there's no significant correlation in personality traits between foster parents and their adopted children (fascinating, no?), and that these children have the same correlation with their biological parents regardless if they are raised in the same household or with foster parents. Shouldn't the unique experience of an entirely different household have some effect on personality?
- MarkPNeyer 10y ago
  Seriously. "Entrepreneurship doesn't happen. The data are very clear on this. Most people who start businesses fail."
aab0 10y ago
If you have to appeal to rare cases such as traumatic brain injury, then it is indeed 'really hard' and not of much interest theoretically or practically; the mind is what the brain does, so that massive damage can cause changes is exactly what one would have predicted already, just as one would predict that intelligence, memory, happiness, language and other cognitive traits can be changed by massive damage... (Even more massive damage can radically change one's personality through a process called 'death'.) It's not that it's an 'outlier' to be discarded, it's that it's not important if it's that rare.
- CuriouslyC 10y ago
  I used that as an example because it's so radical as to be irrefutable, and pretty amusing. Massive personality change does not require traumatic brain injury. Just because something is really hard does not mean it is not of much interest theoretically or practically. Everything that is meaningful in human endeavor has been "really hard." I think that it is actually really important to study and understand personality change. Frankly, a lot of people have negative, (self)destructive personalities, and they would be much better served with positive, constructive personalities. Maybe if we understand how people change, we could come up with a consistent, efficient method to help those people, rather than shrugging and saying "haters gonna hate."
  - mike4ty4 10y ago
    The $6m question is, is willpower itself limited by genetics? What happens then, if the ability to exert the hard effort to change the personality is itself genetically limited?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]