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This is one of my favorite quotes from him: "The female mind is capable of understanding analytic geometry... The difficulty may just be that we have never yet

by araneae 17y ago

This is one of my favorite quotes from him: "The female mind is capable of understanding analytic geometry... The difficulty may just be that we have never yet discovered a way to communicate with the female mind. If it is done in the right way, you may be able to get something out of it." – Richard Feynman http://www.phy.ilstu.edu/pte/310content/nature/feynman.html http://www.phy.ilstu.edu/pte/310content/nature/feynman.html

foldr 17y ago
Unfortunately, judging from the context, that wasn't even a joke.
- jerf 17y ago
  Are you upset because a man said it? "Math is too male and we need to come up with more female ways of teaching it" is a pretty standard feminist idea. In fact, replace "math" with a wide variety of things. Recall he's not working under modern PC strictures, not that he necessarily would have subjected himself to them anyhow. He gets to say it directly, not cloak it in endless verbiage. That said, I actually disagree. Math is what it is and everybody regardless of gender must bend their brain to the subject and not the other way around. I think its fundamental inhumanity is dominant. But you seem to me to be casually implying that his statement is un-PC, and I think it's actually rather shockingly PC, just also very blunt.
  - foldr 17y ago
    No, I'm "upset" because the rest of the article makes it clear that Feynman really did think that women were inherently useless as math -- and even "rational thought" in general: >Those people who have for years been insisting (in the face of all obvious evidence to the contrary) that the male and female are equally capable of rational thought may have something. This is a bit rich for my tastes (but it will no doubt go down very well on this forum). I just don't see why it would be someone's favorite quote, unless they liked making fun of women's intellectual abilities.
    - Simucal 17y ago
      I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math. Why is it no woman has won the fields medal? Why do many talented women stop their academic career at the bachelor and masters level when it comes to mathematics? I think you would of been able to say that sexism in academia was a reason in the past, but I just don't think that really flies anymore. Is it possible the genuinely is a difference between mathematical ability between men and women or do people this this is purely cultural?
      - foldr 17y ago
        >I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math. Well yeh, tons of people have studied it: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=women+male+math+differences&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=20001&as_sdtp=on http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=women+male+math+differen...
      - barry-cotter 17y ago
        edit: http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full Two recent studies directly address the question of whether greater male variability in mathematics is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Machin and Pekkarinen (19) reported that the M:F VR in mathematics was significantly >1.00 at the P < 0.05 level among 15-year-old students in 34 of 40 countries participating in the 2003 PISA and among 13-year-old students in 33 of 50 countries participating in the 2003 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). However, these data also indicated that the math VR was significantly less than or insignificantly different from 1.00 for some of the countries that participated in these assessments (e.g., Table 2), a finding inconsistent with the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis. ... Similarly, Penner's cross-nation analysis of the 1995 TIMSS data (20) showed that the proportion of girls scoring above the 95th percentile positively and significantly correlated with several measures of female equality and status, including equity in educational opportunities and representation in the labor force and political offices. Best I could find in 5 minutes Consequences in High School and College of Sex Differences in Mathematical Reasoning Ability: A Longitudinal Perspective Camilla Persson Benbow and Julian C. Stanley The Johns Hopkins University Between 1972 and 1974 the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY) identified over 2,000 7th and 8th graders who scored as well as a national sample of 11th and 12th grade females on the College Board’s Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) Mathematics or Verbal tests. A substantial sex difference in mathematical reasoning ability was found (Benbow & Stanley, 1980b, 1981). The consequences and development of this sex difference over the following 5 years were investigated longitudinally. Over 91 percent (1,996 out of 2,188 SMPY students) participated. This study established that the sex difference persisted over several years and was related to subsequent sex differences in mathematics achievement. The sex difference in mathematics did not reflect differential mathematics course taking. The abilities of males developed more rapidly than those of females. Sex differences favoring males were found in participation in mathematics, performance on the SAT-M, and taking of and performance on mathematics achievement and Advanced Placement Program examinations. SMPY females received better grades in their mathematics courses than SMPY males did. Few significant sex differences were found in attitudes toward mathematics. Here's a visualisation (I think) of the male/female ratios of various IQs you'd expect given the different variances http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quotient-visualized http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quot...
  - araneae 17y ago
    I think that "math is what it is" is a false statement, at least in the way you intended it. The way math is represented is not at all inherent to mathematical structure (i.e. left to right, the characters you use, etc.) and I'm sure many procedures we use to solve math equations could be done in different ways (long division vs. short division, for example). It is possible that the way we represent math and the way we solve mathematical problems is somehow inherently more difficult for females, and that a different system might better. But I have no idea what system that would be, and practically I don't think it's worth it.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      If such a system could be created then it would be invaluable. It would help open up mathematics to literally half the population. That would help more advances to be made in mathematics, and it should be trivial to translate from one system to another once the two systems were created. With all that said, I do not think it is true. I very much doubt anything about our approach to mathematics is inherently gender biased and as a current grad student in math I find the gender ratios in the classes I am taking are biased towards males, but only minutely. (5 males, 4 females in my Comp Func Theory class for instance, 6 males, 5 females in another I am taking). While our representation and symbology is of our choosing, the concepts of mathematics are what they are and we must approach them on their terms if we hope to make progress.
- mhartl 17y ago
  For what it's worth, Richard encouraged his sister Joan to earn a Ph.D. in physics. She worked for years as an astrophysicist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. I had the good fortune of having Joan present at my first scientific talk way back in 1994. I was confused on one point, and she patiently explained to me how a magnetotail extending to infinity could still satisfy div B = 0.

by araneae 17y ago

foldr 17y ago

Unfortunately, judging from the context, that wasn't even a joke.

jerf 17y ago
Are you upset because a man said it? "Math is too male and we need to come up with more female ways of teaching it" is a pretty standard feminist idea. In fact, replace "math" with a wide variety of things. Recall he's not working under modern PC strictures, not that he necessarily would have subjected himself to them anyhow. He gets to say it directly, not cloak it in endless verbiage. That said, I actually disagree. Math is what it is and everybody regardless of gender must bend their brain to the subject and not the other way around. I think its fundamental inhumanity is dominant. But you seem to me to be casually implying that his statement is un-PC, and I think it's actually rather shockingly PC, just also very blunt.
- foldr 17y ago
  No, I'm "upset" because the rest of the article makes it clear that Feynman really did think that women were inherently useless as math -- and even "rational thought" in general: >Those people who have for years been insisting (in the face of all obvious evidence to the contrary) that the male and female are equally capable of rational thought may have something. This is a bit rich for my tastes (but it will no doubt go down very well on this forum). I just don't see why it would be someone's favorite quote, unless they liked making fun of women's intellectual abilities.
  - Simucal 17y ago
    I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math. Why is it no woman has won the fields medal? Why do many talented women stop their academic career at the bachelor and masters level when it comes to mathematics? I think you would of been able to say that sexism in academia was a reason in the past, but I just don't think that really flies anymore. Is it possible the genuinely is a difference between mathematical ability between men and women or do people this this is purely cultural?
    - foldr 17y ago
      >I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when it comes to math. Well yeh, tons of people have studied it: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=women+male+math+differences&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=20001&as_sdtp=on http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=women+male+math+differen...
    - barry-cotter 17y ago
      edit: http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full Two recent studies directly address the question of whether greater male variability in mathematics is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Machin and Pekkarinen (19) reported that the M:F VR in mathematics was significantly >1.00 at the P < 0.05 level among 15-year-old students in 34 of 40 countries participating in the 2003 PISA and among 13-year-old students in 33 of 50 countries participating in the 2003 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). However, these data also indicated that the math VR was significantly less than or insignificantly different from 1.00 for some of the countries that participated in these assessments (e.g., Table 2), a finding inconsistent with the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis. ... Similarly, Penner's cross-nation analysis of the 1995 TIMSS data (20) showed that the proportion of girls scoring above the 95th percentile positively and significantly correlated with several measures of female equality and status, including equity in educational opportunities and representation in the labor force and political offices. Best I could find in 5 minutes Consequences in High School and College of Sex Differences in Mathematical Reasoning Ability: A Longitudinal Perspective Camilla Persson Benbow and Julian C. Stanley The Johns Hopkins University Between 1972 and 1974 the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY) identified over 2,000 7th and 8th graders who scored as well as a national sample of 11th and 12th grade females on the College Board’s Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) Mathematics or Verbal tests. A substantial sex difference in mathematical reasoning ability was found (Benbow & Stanley, 1980b, 1981). The consequences and development of this sex difference over the following 5 years were investigated longitudinally. Over 91 percent (1,996 out of 2,188 SMPY students) participated. This study established that the sex difference persisted over several years and was related to subsequent sex differences in mathematics achievement. The sex difference in mathematics did not reflect differential mathematics course taking. The abilities of males developed more rapidly than those of females. Sex differences favoring males were found in participation in mathematics, performance on the SAT-M, and taking of and performance on mathematics achievement and Advanced Placement Program examinations. SMPY females received better grades in their mathematics courses than SMPY males did. Few significant sex differences were found in attitudes toward mathematics. Here's a visualisation (I think) of the male/female ratios of various IQs you'd expect given the different variances http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quotient-visualized http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quot...
- araneae 17y ago
  I think that "math is what it is" is a false statement, at least in the way you intended it. The way math is represented is not at all inherent to mathematical structure (i.e. left to right, the characters you use, etc.) and I'm sure many procedures we use to solve math equations could be done in different ways (long division vs. short division, for example). It is possible that the way we represent math and the way we solve mathematical problems is somehow inherently more difficult for females, and that a different system might better. But I have no idea what system that would be, and practically I don't think it's worth it.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    If such a system could be created then it would be invaluable. It would help open up mathematics to literally half the population. That would help more advances to be made in mathematics, and it should be trivial to translate from one system to another once the two systems were created. With all that said, I do not think it is true. I very much doubt anything about our approach to mathematics is inherently gender biased and as a current grad student in math I find the gender ratios in the classes I am taking are biased towards males, but only minutely. (5 males, 4 females in my Comp Func Theory class for instance, 6 males, 5 females in another I am taking). While our representation and symbology is of our choosing, the concepts of mathematics are what they are and we must approach them on their terms if we hope to make progress.
mhartl 17y ago
For what it's worth, Richard encouraged his sister Joan to earn a Ph.D. in physics. She worked for years as an astrophysicist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. I had the good fortune of having Joan present at my first scientific talk way back in 1994. I was confused on one point, and she patiently explained to me how a magnetotail extending to infinity could still satisfy div B = 0.