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The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce. O

The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce. Otto T. Mallery, a late 19th century liberal, in his “Economic Union and Enduring Peace” states, “If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries, goods must do so. Unless the Shackles can be dropped from trade, bombs will be dropped from the sky.” Are you suggesting that without a central leviathan like the EU, free trade and cooperation is untenable?

dragonwriter 10y ago
> The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." Frameworks for interdependence and vast bureaucracies aren't mutually exclusive (in fact, they often go together: the US federal government is both of those things, too.)
- djschnei 10y ago
  I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. In fact, the need for a coercive third party proves the shortcomings of said framework.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. That's an interesting theory, but I would suggest that most successful such frameworks in human history have included some form of bureaucracy.
    - djschnei 10y ago
      Bureaucracies, like everything, come in varying forms and magnitudes. In my years of studying, the most successful frameworks (bureaucracies, whatever you want to call them) served very limited and precise purposes. I agree, for mutually beneficial human cooperation to take place there needs to be something to enforce the rules. In my opinion, those rules all come down to enforcing individual property rights. Anything above and beyond that is detrimental on the whole. What frameworks would you point to as examples of what you're talking about (besides the EU... cause I think it's objectively a bad example haha)?
      - VorticesRcool 10y ago
        I disagree. Many of the rules do not come down to only enforcing individual property rights. An optimal outcome for society and each individual can reached by enforcing them in many scenarios, but not all. For example, how do you reach an optimal solution for orphans with the enforcement of private property rights? Or what about regulation of the relationship between a doctor and their patients? If the patient is mentally unable to act as a rational agent, there may be a conflict of interest between the doctor and patient without regulation. What about health and safety standards? How does only focusing on private property rights deal with the vast asymmetry of information out there?
specialist 10y ago
"You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce." Your ideology has been deprecated. Please install upgrades. Unlike the mythical Freedom Markets™, actual functional open markets require regulation, begetting bureaucracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Rules-Technology-Stupidity-Bureaucracy/dp/1612193749 https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Rules-Technology-Stupidity-Bur... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-column/2015/mar/11/bureaucracy-tedious-frustrating-capitalisms-fault https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-co... http://boingboing.net/2015/02/02/david-graebers-the-utopia-of.html http://boingboing.net/2015/02/02/david-graebers-the-utopia-o... "Are you suggesting that without a central leviathan like the EU, free trade and cooperation is untenable?" Correct.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." Frameworks for interdependence and vast bureaucracies aren't mutually exclusive (in fact, they often go together: the US federal government is both of those things, too.)

djschnei 10y ago
I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. In fact, the need for a coercive third party proves the shortcomings of said framework.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. That's an interesting theory, but I would suggest that most successful such frameworks in human history have included some form of bureaucracy.
  - djschnei 10y ago
    Bureaucracies, like everything, come in varying forms and magnitudes. In my years of studying, the most successful frameworks (bureaucracies, whatever you want to call them) served very limited and precise purposes. I agree, for mutually beneficial human cooperation to take place there needs to be something to enforce the rules. In my opinion, those rules all come down to enforcing individual property rights. Anything above and beyond that is detrimental on the whole. What frameworks would you point to as examples of what you're talking about (besides the EU... cause I think it's objectively a bad example haha)?
    - VorticesRcool 10y ago
      I disagree. Many of the rules do not come down to only enforcing individual property rights. An optimal outcome for society and each individual can reached by enforcing them in many scenarios, but not all. For example, how do you reach an optimal solution for orphans with the enforcement of private property rights? Or what about regulation of the relationship between a doctor and their patients? If the patient is mentally unable to act as a rational agent, there may be a conflict of interest between the doctor and patient without regulation. What about health and safety standards? How does only focusing on private property rights deal with the vast asymmetry of information out there?

specialist 10y ago

"You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce." Your ideology has been deprecated. Please install upgrades. Unlike the mythical Freedom Markets™, actual functional open markets require regulation, begetting bureaucracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Rules-Technology-Stupidity-Bureaucracy/dp/1612193749 https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Rules-Technology-Stupidity-Bur... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-column/2015/mar/11/bureaucracy-tedious-frustrating-capitalisms-fault https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-co... http://boingboing.net/2015/02/02/david-graebers-the-utopia-of.html http://boingboing.net/2015/02/02/david-graebers-the-utopia-o... "Are you suggesting that without a central leviathan like the EU, free trade and cooperation is untenable?" Correct.