8 ms·

I wasn't entirely convinced about why the coffee is better than the cold brew method. They both return different flavor sets, and taste at that point is complet

by dvcc 10y ago

I wasn't entirely convinced about why the coffee is better than the cold brew method. They both return different flavor sets, and taste at that point is completely subjective. A bad comparison would be like saying orange juice with pulp is scientifically better than orange juice without pulp.

rubidium 10y ago
I agree. You see the same thing with the "third wave" movement who espouse that very light roast is the "best" way to roast coffee. Light, medium and dark roast coffee is all perfectly fine ways of roasting, and all return different flavors for different beans. I prefer a roaster that has mastered the whole range.
- theseatoms 10y ago
  Except light roasting preserves a higher caffeine content. So this method is objectively more efficient as a stimulant delivery mechanism.
  - ahoy 10y ago
    Third wave coffee isn't soylent.
    - wlesieutre 10y ago
      Soylent is an objectively more efficient beverage than third wave coffee because it is more nutrient complete! Or we could keep drinking coffee because it tastes good.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - lukeHeuer 10y ago
    This is a myth. Roasting does not alter caffeine levels, as it is very heat stable. You might get more caffeine from a light roast if you are measuring your beans by volume. Light roasts expand less and are more dense than darker roasts, so you ultimately end up with more mass.
    - theseatoms 10y ago
      Interesting. Thanks for the correction.
      - lukeHeuer 10y ago
        You're welcome. I was under the same impression myself until recently. If you really need a kick though, pick up some Robusta. It tastes pretty rough but has more caffeine than Arabica.
        eric_h 10y ago
        This definitely shook what I had thought was fact for quite some time. I found this article[0] to be quite informative. 0) https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-dark-vs-light https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-da...
        lukeHeuer 10y ago
        That was a good article. The only other cause of caffeine variation I'm aware of is altitude. Caffeine is produced as a defense against pests, and since there are fewer pests at higher altitudes less caffeine is generated in that scenario. Coincidently, altitude is usually associated with higher quality coffee. The difference is negligible, so I guess my point is if high caffeine consumption is a goal just drink more coffee.
        lostlogin 10y ago
        The charred rubber flavour is almost offset by the incredible crema. But it isn't and you will feel like you ate charcoal. It's an interesting exercise alright.
- keevie 10y ago
  Sure, taste is subjective, but that doesn't mean certain cooking techniques are better than others. Cold brew oxidizes, and doesn't extract many of the flavor compounds from coffee. That's why it always tastes kind of stale and flat. Now, you might like that, but I'm sure you can see why many people would say that it's a worse way to make iced coffee. Similarly with roasting beans---lighter roasts preserve more of the flavor of the beans. So, if you have really high quality beans, dark roasts are just a waste. That's not to say that dark roast coffee can't be delicious, but it's less complex. Similarly, sangria is delicious, but you probably shouldn't mix your 1982 chateau lafite with orange juice.
  - spraak 10y ago
    Cold brew doesn't make iced coffee. If you add ice to your cold brew, sure, but it can also be warmed like regular hot coffee.
  - bathMarm0t 10y ago
    Well said. Your roast should complement your bean. Single origin ethiopian yirgacheffe/harar? Don't you dare roast that bean past light brown. The whole point of selecting where your coffee comes from is lost if you do something in the process to mask it's origin individuality (heavy roast / adding sugar etc). Some beans complement dark roasts well (I'm thinking like sumatras or heavy "dirt" flavored coffee), where dark, burnt earth tobacco flavors are awesome and complement very well, but most beans that you would care to spend the extra bucks won't.
- lukeHeuer 10y ago
  You typically see darker roasts with larger roasters because it's still approached like a commodity, and darker roasts are easy to achieve consistency with since they don't feature much of the natural flavors of the coffee bean. The whole coffee world was in a bad state until people began taking the stance that certain coffees were better quality, and paying more for them. For the first time it incentivized extra effort from the farmers. Over the last decade or so our understanding of the effects of roasting coffee has grown immensely, and we can objectivley say that there is a specific range before the only thing featured tastes are imparted from the roasting process. Just like it's now common knowledge that you don't burn a good steak if you want to enjoy it for what it is. I really disagree with the third wave snobbery that the only coffee to be enjoyed is light roast though. There's a pretty wide range that will produce some amazing coffee. Putting them side by side for a cupping is interesting, I personally became more sensitive to roasting too dark after tasting the same beans under different roast profiles, and seeing how quickly the dark range began diminishing complexity, brightness and clarity in my cups. On the other hand, all too frequently I get underdeveloped third wave coffee that is just as unenjoyable as a burnt batch.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    >darker roasts are easy to achieve. I don't think it's that, I think it's because they last longer on the shelf (light roasts go stale faster) and because dark roasts just taste burnt, meaning you can swap out one bean for another and not notice a difference. So if a cheaper beans becomes available, that will get switched in.
    - lukeHeuer 10y ago
      You put a period in that sentence where there wasn't one. I said "darker roasts are easy to achieve consistency with", and as you said, to help better facilitate the commodity approach to coffee. Dark roasts are not more shelf stable than lighter roasts though. The oils in dark roasts become rancid substantially more quickly because a darker roast has expanded more, and therefore has more surface area to come in contact with air. Starbucks and other big companies say their coffee is shelf stable for about a year, but the reality is coffee peaks 24-72 hours after roasting. Burnt notes grossly outweigh staleness though. That with the benefits of consistency is great for bigger brands exactly for the other reasons you mention. To add a bit more perspective, green unroasted coffee beans are considered fresh or in season for about 9 months. The more you get away from this in a roast profile the shorter the shelf life.
zumu 10y ago
I was the lead barista at my shop for several years before switching back to tech, and I would %100 agree with you. Depending on the coffee or roast, the coffee will do better as cold-brew or Japanese-style iced. Some coffees are absolutely terrible as cold-brew and vis-versa. That being said, I almost always prefer cold-brew (bias-disclosed). Furthermore, this article seems to follow a trend in speciality coffee of taking some loose science then jumping to completely arbitrary conclusions. Often it is hard to tell if they are on to something, just want the attention, or have something to gain economically by propagating their view.

by dvcc 10y ago

rubidium 10y ago

I agree. You see the same thing with the "third wave" movement who espouse that very light roast is the "best" way to roast coffee. Light, medium and dark roast coffee is all perfectly fine ways of roasting, and all return different flavors for different beans. I prefer a roaster that has mastered the whole range.

theseatoms 10y ago
Except light roasting preserves a higher caffeine content. So this method is objectively more efficient as a stimulant delivery mechanism.
- ahoy 10y ago
  Third wave coffee isn't soylent.
  - wlesieutre 10y ago
    Soylent is an objectively more efficient beverage than third wave coffee because it is more nutrient complete! Or we could keep drinking coffee because it tastes good.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- lukeHeuer 10y ago
  This is a myth. Roasting does not alter caffeine levels, as it is very heat stable. You might get more caffeine from a light roast if you are measuring your beans by volume. Light roasts expand less and are more dense than darker roasts, so you ultimately end up with more mass.
  - theseatoms 10y ago
    Interesting. Thanks for the correction.
    - lukeHeuer 10y ago
      You're welcome. I was under the same impression myself until recently. If you really need a kick though, pick up some Robusta. It tastes pretty rough but has more caffeine than Arabica.
      - eric_h 10y ago
        This definitely shook what I had thought was fact for quite some time. I found this article[0] to be quite informative. 0) https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-dark-vs-light https://www.kickinghorsecoffee.com/en/blog/caffeine-myths-da...
        lukeHeuer 10y ago
        That was a good article. The only other cause of caffeine variation I'm aware of is altitude. Caffeine is produced as a defense against pests, and since there are fewer pests at higher altitudes less caffeine is generated in that scenario. Coincidently, altitude is usually associated with higher quality coffee. The difference is negligible, so I guess my point is if high caffeine consumption is a goal just drink more coffee.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        The charred rubber flavour is almost offset by the incredible crema. But it isn't and you will feel like you ate charcoal. It's an interesting exercise alright.
keevie 10y ago
Sure, taste is subjective, but that doesn't mean certain cooking techniques are better than others. Cold brew oxidizes, and doesn't extract many of the flavor compounds from coffee. That's why it always tastes kind of stale and flat. Now, you might like that, but I'm sure you can see why many people would say that it's a worse way to make iced coffee. Similarly with roasting beans---lighter roasts preserve more of the flavor of the beans. So, if you have really high quality beans, dark roasts are just a waste. That's not to say that dark roast coffee can't be delicious, but it's less complex. Similarly, sangria is delicious, but you probably shouldn't mix your 1982 chateau lafite with orange juice.
- spraak 10y ago
  Cold brew doesn't make iced coffee. If you add ice to your cold brew, sure, but it can also be warmed like regular hot coffee.
- bathMarm0t 10y ago
  Well said. Your roast should complement your bean. Single origin ethiopian yirgacheffe/harar? Don't you dare roast that bean past light brown. The whole point of selecting where your coffee comes from is lost if you do something in the process to mask it's origin individuality (heavy roast / adding sugar etc). Some beans complement dark roasts well (I'm thinking like sumatras or heavy "dirt" flavored coffee), where dark, burnt earth tobacco flavors are awesome and complement very well, but most beans that you would care to spend the extra bucks won't.
lukeHeuer 10y ago
You typically see darker roasts with larger roasters because it's still approached like a commodity, and darker roasts are easy to achieve consistency with since they don't feature much of the natural flavors of the coffee bean. The whole coffee world was in a bad state until people began taking the stance that certain coffees were better quality, and paying more for them. For the first time it incentivized extra effort from the farmers. Over the last decade or so our understanding of the effects of roasting coffee has grown immensely, and we can objectivley say that there is a specific range before the only thing featured tastes are imparted from the roasting process. Just like it's now common knowledge that you don't burn a good steak if you want to enjoy it for what it is. I really disagree with the third wave snobbery that the only coffee to be enjoyed is light roast though. There's a pretty wide range that will produce some amazing coffee. Putting them side by side for a cupping is interesting, I personally became more sensitive to roasting too dark after tasting the same beans under different roast profiles, and seeing how quickly the dark range began diminishing complexity, brightness and clarity in my cups. On the other hand, all too frequently I get underdeveloped third wave coffee that is just as unenjoyable as a burnt batch.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  >darker roasts are easy to achieve. I don't think it's that, I think it's because they last longer on the shelf (light roasts go stale faster) and because dark roasts just taste burnt, meaning you can swap out one bean for another and not notice a difference. So if a cheaper beans becomes available, that will get switched in.
  - lukeHeuer 10y ago
    You put a period in that sentence where there wasn't one. I said "darker roasts are easy to achieve consistency with", and as you said, to help better facilitate the commodity approach to coffee. Dark roasts are not more shelf stable than lighter roasts though. The oils in dark roasts become rancid substantially more quickly because a darker roast has expanded more, and therefore has more surface area to come in contact with air. Starbucks and other big companies say their coffee is shelf stable for about a year, but the reality is coffee peaks 24-72 hours after roasting. Burnt notes grossly outweigh staleness though. That with the benefits of consistency is great for bigger brands exactly for the other reasons you mention. To add a bit more perspective, green unroasted coffee beans are considered fresh or in season for about 9 months. The more you get away from this in a roast profile the shorter the shelf life.

zumu 10y ago

I was the lead barista at my shop for several years before switching back to tech, and I would %100 agree with you. Depending on the coffee or roast, the coffee will do better as cold-brew or Japanese-style iced. Some coffees are absolutely terrible as cold-brew and vis-versa. That being said, I almost always prefer cold-brew (bias-disclosed). Furthermore, this article seems to follow a trend in speciality coffee of taking some loose science then jumping to completely arbitrary conclusions. Often it is hard to tell if they are on to something, just want the attention, or have something to gain economically by propagating their view.