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> Greece is about the only country that actually did significant Austerity but its not working. Greece did not do any austerity; just like the Croats, the Gree

by Annatar 10y ago

> Greece is about the only country that actually did significant Austerity but its not working. Greece did not do any austerity; just like the Croats, the Greeks lived on debt and piled up more and more... and I watched some hidden camera documentaries on Greece (VICE comes to mind), that secretly filmed how nobody in Greece issues one a receipt upon payment, basically eschewing paying taxes and committing tax fraud... on a systemic and massive scale... why? Because Greece has a corrupt government, so the citizens want to "stick it to the man". Why does Greece have a corrupt government? Because they tolerate one, and the guys which replaced them, and the guys which will replace them, will be just as undisciplined and just as corrupt. Meanwhile, German citizens were footing Greeks' systemic embezzling through German taxes and by German government fiat; and now all of a sudden when the Germans demand Greeks pay back their debts, you think it's okay to default? It is not okay to not pay one's debts. That's German citizens' money. They didn't embezzle, they pay their taxes, they work hard, they save, and they deserve to have their loans paid back. How would you like it if you lent someone money, and they purposely defaulted, with the intent of not paying you back? > The EU should have let them default or take over their debt completely. No! That would mean Greeks would have lived on someone else's labor and walked away with financial and material gain scott-free, or supported corruption by people who did. That is not okay!

maze-le 10y ago
> How would you like it if you lent someone money, and they purposely defaulted, with the intent of not paying you back? By not lending this person any money in the future... A default has very harsh consequences and is not pleasant at all, but it is a normal process in capitalism. It happens all the time, everywhere. This is why banks make risk assessments (normally). > It is not okay to not pay one's debts. That's German citizens' money. No its not. Its german banks money, they made the wrong decision in lending money to an untrustful debtor. German tay payers money only came into play when the state worked out the 'rescue packages' for greece. These 'rescue packages' were only meant for the greece government to pay back the banks. About 90% of the money given to greece goes directly into the debt-payback. So if anything german tax payers are financing the flawd descision making process of 'Deutsche Bank' and others. And about the level of corruption in greece. Yes it exists, and is systemic. But so are the shady deals of Bilfinger Berger, the whole Berlin Airport-farce, the quicksand investments of the Landesbanken and virtually every public building project conducted in germany.
nickik 10y ago
Your analysis is terrible and full borderline racist crap. First of all. The EU is responsable for Greece having such low bond yields to begin with (back in pre-2008). This was a direct effect of the widely held believe that debt would be common to the EU. This gave a lot of countries bad incentives. When it became clear that debt was not held in common, mayhem ... Then they did not let Greece default. German banks did not actually hold that many Greek assets, but they acquired more and more. The ECB equally started to accept bad Greek bonds as collateral. The German banks made deliberately bad investments because they believe the government would pay it. You can now of course argue evil banks, but the real problem is the constraints on Greece. During the gold standard times it was actually common that countries could default and then come back. > How would you like it if you lent someone money, and they purposely defaulted, with the intent of not paying you back? They did not purposely default. They literally could not lend anymore money and could not pay back. They only were in this problem in the first place because they had the such low bond yield and now had to refinance with bond yields having reason 4x. Notice the red line: https://inthelongrunwerealldead.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/europe-bond-yields-1993-2011.png https://inthelongrunwerealldead.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/... Just to make it clear, the Greek have a shitty system and they are a terrible government that should have never be let into the EU. But the EU is equally a total shit show and they are largely responsable for the collective trouble.
- golergka 10y ago
  You accuse the commenter above of racism, but you don't actually address tax evasion and other cultural issues.
- Annatar 10y ago
  > Your analysis is terrible and full borderline racist > crap. Do explain how "pay back your debt!" is racist. I am really, really interested in the logic of that. By the way, I have nothing against Greeks. I wouldn't lend them any money is all, not because they are Greek, but because of the way they think, hence ---> current situation. And on a further note, I am actually rooting for you, and I hope you pay back all your debts and come out of the hard times better for it. > Then they did not let Greece default. German banks did > not actually hold that many Greek assets, but they > acquired more and more. The ECB equally started to > accept bad Greek bonds as collateral. The German banks > made deliberately bad investments because they believe > the government would pay it. So what I understand you writing is, "it's the debtor's own fault for letting us swindle them!" If so, I very regretfully inform you that your logic is flawed, as it is never okay to swindle someone. A buddha would never do such a thing, as it is evil to do. It also tends to leave one in a situation Greece is now in, for example.

by Annatar 10y ago

maze-le 10y ago

> How would you like it if you lent someone money, and they purposely defaulted, with the intent of not paying you back? By not lending this person any money in the future... A default has very harsh consequences and is not pleasant at all, but it is a normal process in capitalism. It happens all the time, everywhere. This is why banks make risk assessments (normally). > It is not okay to not pay one's debts. That's German citizens' money. No its not. Its german banks money, they made the wrong decision in lending money to an untrustful debtor. German tay payers money only came into play when the state worked out the 'rescue packages' for greece. These 'rescue packages' were only meant for the greece government to pay back the banks. About 90% of the money given to greece goes directly into the debt-payback. So if anything german tax payers are financing the flawd descision making process of 'Deutsche Bank' and others. And about the level of corruption in greece. Yes it exists, and is systemic. But so are the shady deals of Bilfinger Berger, the whole Berlin Airport-farce, the quicksand investments of the Landesbanken and virtually every public building project conducted in germany.

nickik 10y ago

Your analysis is terrible and full borderline racist crap. First of all. The EU is responsable for Greece having such low bond yields to begin with (back in pre-2008). This was a direct effect of the widely held believe that debt would be common to the EU. This gave a lot of countries bad incentives. When it became clear that debt was not held in common, mayhem ... Then they did not let Greece default. German banks did not actually hold that many Greek assets, but they acquired more and more. The ECB equally started to accept bad Greek bonds as collateral. The German banks made deliberately bad investments because they believe the government would pay it. You can now of course argue evil banks, but the real problem is the constraints on Greece. During the gold standard times it was actually common that countries could default and then come back. > How would you like it if you lent someone money, and they purposely defaulted, with the intent of not paying you back? They did not purposely default. They literally could not lend anymore money and could not pay back. They only were in this problem in the first place because they had the such low bond yield and now had to refinance with bond yields having reason 4x. Notice the red line: https://inthelongrunwerealldead.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/europe-bond-yields-1993-2011.png https://inthelongrunwerealldead.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/... Just to make it clear, the Greek have a shitty system and they are a terrible government that should have never be let into the EU. But the EU is equally a total shit show and they are largely responsable for the collective trouble.

golergka 10y ago
You accuse the commenter above of racism, but you don't actually address tax evasion and other cultural issues.
Annatar 10y ago
> Your analysis is terrible and full borderline racist > crap. Do explain how "pay back your debt!" is racist. I am really, really interested in the logic of that. By the way, I have nothing against Greeks. I wouldn't lend them any money is all, not because they are Greek, but because of the way they think, hence ---> current situation. And on a further note, I am actually rooting for you, and I hope you pay back all your debts and come out of the hard times better for it. > Then they did not let Greece default. German banks did > not actually hold that many Greek assets, but they > acquired more and more. The ECB equally started to > accept bad Greek bonds as collateral. The German banks > made deliberately bad investments because they believe > the government would pay it. So what I understand you writing is, "it's the debtor's own fault for letting us swindle them!" If so, I very regretfully inform you that your logic is flawed, as it is never okay to swindle someone. A buddha would never do such a thing, as it is evil to do. It also tends to leave one in a situation Greece is now in, for example.