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> this may be good news for the EU, even when we > sacrifice a generation of UK citizens for our benefit. As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentime

> this may be good news for the EU, even when we > sacrifice a generation of UK citizens for our benefit. As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentiment expressed here. It flies in the face of the ideas and values upon which the EU was founded. I'm not going to say anything beyond that.

anonymousDan 10y ago
As an Irish citizen I have to say that I certainly don't see it as a hood thing for Europe. It's influence will be sorely missed for what it's worth.
- tropo 10y ago
  It's very unfortunate that you won't be going with them. You are close to them and have the same language. It just makes sense, but sadly the old disputes over religion (looking silly now) have led to today's lack of unified islands. What doesn't make sense is having a commonwealth/fiveeyes country bolted on the side of the EU.
  - anonymousDan 10y ago
    Mate if you're talking about Ireland then with respect you don't know what you're on about. For starters Ireland is neither a commonwealth country or (as far as I know) a five eyes country. Secondly Ireland is one of the countries with the highest EU approval ratings. And for good reason, the EU has been overwhelmingly good for Ireland. There is literally not a chance in hell of us leaving. Although the relationship between Ireland and Britain is strong, and certainly much better than it use to be, I think most people would be wary of becoming to dependent on them without the EU as a counterbalance given our history.
    - tropo 10y ago
      I mean the UK. The UK is a commonwealth country and a fiveeyes country. It makes no sense for the UK to be in the EU. The fact that Ireland has high EU approval ratings is immaterial to the fact that it's not logical to have it be apart from the UK. This is a tragic artifact of history. Ideally this would be fixed, but I agree it isn't likely to happen. You wouldn't need a counterbalance if things were done right, which is to have the larger chunks (today's England, Scotland, Republic of Ireland) be split into more similar-sized chunks. Having a couple dozen chunks (called what you like: parish, county, state, province...) is probably sane.
Tomte 10y ago
And let's not forget that about half of the Brits wanted to stay.
- anonyfox 10y ago
  there's such a thing like "tyranny of the masses".
teamhappy 10y ago
Yeah. No idea why he said that. Also, why does he think "we" are sacrificing anything? Last time I checked "we" didn't get a vote on this one.
- anonyfox 10y ago
  non-native english. Of course I do not mean that bloody stuff like in ancient times. More in terms of a strategic move for which I don't know a better wording.
  - teamhappy 10y ago
    I don't know where you're from, but here in Germany we generally try to avoid sacrificing people (both literally and figuratively).
    - anonyfox 10y ago
      Yes. Every divorce here in germany is basically love and flowers and based on constructive respect. Sure. We do not actively "sacrifice" them. They voted for themselves to go out, they believe it's better to them. Okay. But why should the EU not do what it can the make the best of the situation? Do not answer with european spirit, the vote was against this, for the hope of a little better financial situation (aka: selfishness). I really support everyone who needs help whenever I can, but I can't stand this behaviour, expecting mercy for their own selfishness. And as it seems, we have more important problems where real lifes are on stake, syrian immigrants for example.
sievebrain 10y ago
But it's a common sentiment across the EU. There are a lot of people across the EU who are essentially totalitarian in nature. They believe remaking Europe into a new EU country is civilisation itself, and relish the prospect of a trade war with the UK which they are convinced they will win.
- anonyfox 10y ago
  essentially, yes. I think i'm in that camp, too. I believe this has to do with the globalization and the problem it brings for local people. To be relevant in the world, one should be strong, united and of reasonable size (economically, ...). If the EU would collapse now into individual states, each of them (esp eastern europe) would suffer greatly and maybe has to deal with russia. How much of a help the NATO is? just ask ukraine.
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    Who gives a shit about "relevance" in the world? Politicians care about "relevance", ordinary people care about quality of life. And there are plenty of small countries outside the EU or other large trading blocs that have high quality of life.
ianstallings 10y ago
As an American what shocks me is the accusations of racism, the anger, and the outright attacks on the British. Talk about fair-weather friends.
- paganel 10y ago
  I'm from Eastern Europe, have lots of friends who live and work in the UK. To see how important the anti-immigrant, anti-Eastern European discourse was as part of the "Leave" campaign was a real kick in the balls, so to speak. Hence the "the accusations of racism, the anger, and the outright attacks on the British"
- k__ 10y ago
  They never seemed to be really interested in the EU, often wanting their "own" thing, like keeping the Pound instead of adopting the Euro. Also, I found countries keeping rich royals around a bit suspicious to begin with.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Yes, the outright attacks are not ok but if you look at the more vocal parts of the British Brexit voters a lot clearly have racist motivations. People I considered almost friends posted on Facebook about throwing all Muslims out after brexit, blaming foreigners in general for a lot that is wrong. Things like: 'it has gone too far, I feel like I live in Islamabad here! OUT!'. These people voted for the Brexit to refuse and throw out foreigners. In their minds anyway. So it is not strange as that is what people see. There are many who voted for other reasons but those are far less vocal.
  - return0 10y ago
    It was expected that racists would vote for brexit loudly anyway. The problem is why everyone else, and especially what you would consider moderate people voted against EU (which is not really a vote against immigration; and it will barely stop it)
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Racism was one of the major drivers of the 'brexit' camp, as well as a whole pile of fearmongering. The attacks on the 'British' are just as dumb, since a lot of people (50%, plus a majority of the Scots and the Irish) are being dragged into this. It's dumb beyond understanding, but it's a nice insight in how much of the lessons learned during the last two world wars have been forgotten.
kbody 10y ago
Unfortunately, unintelligent & selfish people to put it kindly are quite more vocal; that's probably a reason why extreme options can seem more attractive to some. Anyway, please ignore. As a citizen of another EU country, it pains me to she what's happening, some people just want to blame all their problems to a common "enemy" and at that point, demagogues use that for their own gain, I've seen it and keep seeing it on my country in a grand scale. My hope is that somehow a good deal between UK & EU comes off that which the least amount of change, but I'm probably wishfully thinking.
- eva1984 10y ago
  Which is unlikely. If UK walks out of all this, with all the perks it asks for and even less responsibility, just for kindness, then EU will inch towards to be a bigger failure. Of course things are going to change. As a good outcome, changes should be neutral, not punishment, but noticeable. So in other words, still hurts.
radu_floricica 10y ago
> As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentiment expressed here. It flies in the face of the ideas and values upon which the EU was founded. Isn't that the point, though? UK just said "no" to half a century of following these principles - making sure there are consequences means protecting EU ideals, not harming them. Sure, in practice there will be plenty of replacement treaties - but for EU _and_ for those principles it's quite ok if UK ends up 6th or 7th economy instead of 5th. We're not talking about bankrupting anybody here.
- thetmkay 10y ago
  52% of 70% of the voting population said "No".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - hnarn 10y ago
    The argument could be made that the 30% that did not vote deserve what they have coming for not bothering to take part in such a monumental national decision. Not voting means "I don't care", so you let other people decide and then you live with the consequences.
bhouston 10y ago
> As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentiment expressed here. It flies in the face of the ideas and values upon which the EU was founded. I'm not going to say anything beyond that. This is basically a divorce -- and those things generally are filled with hurt feelings, lashing out, clearly competing interests and a scramble for the valuable assets. It is likely going to be more problematic on the weaker party (the UK) than it is on the stronger party (the EU.)
celticninja 10y ago
Really? We just decided to not be part of the EU and now you expect them to treat us with reverence? We just told them that their club was shit so now they are saying “if the club is shit you won't want all these things the club provides and we will now concentrate on looking after out club members at your expense“. The loss to our economy is going to go some where, manufacturing jobs lost in Sunderland will go to Greece or Lithuania where they will welcome the employment, the same will happen to service industry too. The EU has a responsibility to its member states not to us anymore.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
return0 10y ago
Both sides can be appalled though. Did you not expect bitter feelings? Whatever values the EU was founded on, it's now irrelevant for britain.
markvdb 10y ago
Bad news for all EU citizens, even worse news for UK citizens. We hackernews folks will be OK. As always, the vulnerable will suffer most.

anonymousDan 10y ago

As an Irish citizen I have to say that I certainly don't see it as a hood thing for Europe. It's influence will be sorely missed for what it's worth.

tropo 10y ago
It's very unfortunate that you won't be going with them. You are close to them and have the same language. It just makes sense, but sadly the old disputes over religion (looking silly now) have led to today's lack of unified islands. What doesn't make sense is having a commonwealth/fiveeyes country bolted on the side of the EU.
- anonymousDan 10y ago
  Mate if you're talking about Ireland then with respect you don't know what you're on about. For starters Ireland is neither a commonwealth country or (as far as I know) a five eyes country. Secondly Ireland is one of the countries with the highest EU approval ratings. And for good reason, the EU has been overwhelmingly good for Ireland. There is literally not a chance in hell of us leaving. Although the relationship between Ireland and Britain is strong, and certainly much better than it use to be, I think most people would be wary of becoming to dependent on them without the EU as a counterbalance given our history.
  - tropo 10y ago
    I mean the UK. The UK is a commonwealth country and a fiveeyes country. It makes no sense for the UK to be in the EU. The fact that Ireland has high EU approval ratings is immaterial to the fact that it's not logical to have it be apart from the UK. This is a tragic artifact of history. Ideally this would be fixed, but I agree it isn't likely to happen. You wouldn't need a counterbalance if things were done right, which is to have the larger chunks (today's England, Scotland, Republic of Ireland) be split into more similar-sized chunks. Having a couple dozen chunks (called what you like: parish, county, state, province...) is probably sane.

Tomte 10y ago

And let's not forget that about half of the Brits wanted to stay.

anonyfox 10y ago
there's such a thing like "tyranny of the masses".

teamhappy 10y ago

Yeah. No idea why he said that. Also, why does he think "we" are sacrificing anything? Last time I checked "we" didn't get a vote on this one.

anonyfox 10y ago
non-native english. Of course I do not mean that bloody stuff like in ancient times. More in terms of a strategic move for which I don't know a better wording.
- teamhappy 10y ago
  I don't know where you're from, but here in Germany we generally try to avoid sacrificing people (both literally and figuratively).
  - anonyfox 10y ago
    Yes. Every divorce here in germany is basically love and flowers and based on constructive respect. Sure. We do not actively "sacrifice" them. They voted for themselves to go out, they believe it's better to them. Okay. But why should the EU not do what it can the make the best of the situation? Do not answer with european spirit, the vote was against this, for the hope of a little better financial situation (aka: selfishness). I really support everyone who needs help whenever I can, but I can't stand this behaviour, expecting mercy for their own selfishness. And as it seems, we have more important problems where real lifes are on stake, syrian immigrants for example.

sievebrain 10y ago

But it's a common sentiment across the EU. There are a lot of people across the EU who are essentially totalitarian in nature. They believe remaking Europe into a new EU country is civilisation itself, and relish the prospect of a trade war with the UK which they are convinced they will win.

anonyfox 10y ago
essentially, yes. I think i'm in that camp, too. I believe this has to do with the globalization and the problem it brings for local people. To be relevant in the world, one should be strong, united and of reasonable size (economically, ...). If the EU would collapse now into individual states, each of them (esp eastern europe) would suffer greatly and maybe has to deal with russia. How much of a help the NATO is? just ask ukraine.
- sievebrain 10y ago
  Who gives a shit about "relevance" in the world? Politicians care about "relevance", ordinary people care about quality of life. And there are plenty of small countries outside the EU or other large trading blocs that have high quality of life.

ianstallings 10y ago

As an American what shocks me is the accusations of racism, the anger, and the outright attacks on the British. Talk about fair-weather friends.

paganel 10y ago
I'm from Eastern Europe, have lots of friends who live and work in the UK. To see how important the anti-immigrant, anti-Eastern European discourse was as part of the "Leave" campaign was a real kick in the balls, so to speak. Hence the "the accusations of racism, the anger, and the outright attacks on the British"
k__ 10y ago
They never seemed to be really interested in the EU, often wanting their "own" thing, like keeping the Pound instead of adopting the Euro. Also, I found countries keeping rich royals around a bit suspicious to begin with.
tluyben2 10y ago
Yes, the outright attacks are not ok but if you look at the more vocal parts of the British Brexit voters a lot clearly have racist motivations. People I considered almost friends posted on Facebook about throwing all Muslims out after brexit, blaming foreigners in general for a lot that is wrong. Things like: 'it has gone too far, I feel like I live in Islamabad here! OUT!'. These people voted for the Brexit to refuse and throw out foreigners. In their minds anyway. So it is not strange as that is what people see. There are many who voted for other reasons but those are far less vocal.
- return0 10y ago
  It was expected that racists would vote for brexit loudly anyway. The problem is why everyone else, and especially what you would consider moderate people voted against EU (which is not really a vote against immigration; and it will barely stop it)
jacquesm 10y ago
Racism was one of the major drivers of the 'brexit' camp, as well as a whole pile of fearmongering. The attacks on the 'British' are just as dumb, since a lot of people (50%, plus a majority of the Scots and the Irish) are being dragged into this. It's dumb beyond understanding, but it's a nice insight in how much of the lessons learned during the last two world wars have been forgotten.

kbody 10y ago

Unfortunately, unintelligent & selfish people to put it kindly are quite more vocal; that's probably a reason why extreme options can seem more attractive to some. Anyway, please ignore. As a citizen of another EU country, it pains me to she what's happening, some people just want to blame all their problems to a common "enemy" and at that point, demagogues use that for their own gain, I've seen it and keep seeing it on my country in a grand scale. My hope is that somehow a good deal between UK & EU comes off that which the least amount of change, but I'm probably wishfully thinking.

eva1984 10y ago
Which is unlikely. If UK walks out of all this, with all the perks it asks for and even less responsibility, just for kindness, then EU will inch towards to be a bigger failure. Of course things are going to change. As a good outcome, changes should be neutral, not punishment, but noticeable. So in other words, still hurts.

radu_floricica 10y ago

> As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentiment expressed here. It flies in the face of the ideas and values upon which the EU was founded. Isn't that the point, though? UK just said "no" to half a century of following these principles - making sure there are consequences means protecting EU ideals, not harming them. Sure, in practice there will be plenty of replacement treaties - but for EU _and_ for those principles it's quite ok if UK ends up 6th or 7th economy instead of 5th. We're not talking about bankrupting anybody here.

thetmkay 10y ago
52% of 70% of the voting population said "No".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- hnarn 10y ago
  The argument could be made that the 30% that did not vote deserve what they have coming for not bothering to take part in such a monumental national decision. Not voting means "I don't care", so you let other people decide and then you live with the consequences.

bhouston 10y ago

> As a British citizen, I'm appalled by the sentiment expressed here. It flies in the face of the ideas and values upon which the EU was founded. I'm not going to say anything beyond that. This is basically a divorce -- and those things generally are filled with hurt feelings, lashing out, clearly competing interests and a scramble for the valuable assets. It is likely going to be more problematic on the weaker party (the UK) than it is on the stronger party (the EU.)

celticninja 10y ago

Really? We just decided to not be part of the EU and now you expect them to treat us with reverence? We just told them that their club was shit so now they are saying “if the club is shit you won't want all these things the club provides and we will now concentrate on looking after out club members at your expense“. The loss to our economy is going to go some where, manufacturing jobs lost in Sunderland will go to Greece or Lithuania where they will welcome the employment, the same will happen to service industry too. The EU has a responsibility to its member states not to us anymore.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

return0 10y ago

Both sides can be appalled though. Did you not expect bitter feelings? Whatever values the EU was founded on, it's now irrelevant for britain.

markvdb 10y ago

Bad news for all EU citizens, even worse news for UK citizens. We hackernews folks will be OK. As always, the vulnerable will suffer most.