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Yes, younger voters lost. That's quite clear. We didn't get what we voted for. And thus we have no control over our future. Additionally, leaving the EU, if we

Yes, younger voters lost. That's quite clear. We didn't get what we voted for. And thus we have no control over our future. Additionally, leaving the EU, if we're correct in our beliefs, damages our country far more than any economic crisis would. An economic crisis means people have less to spend, and might struggle to find work for a few years. A change in how our country approaches various things that we consider to be rights? That could have effects lasting the next 50 years.

dnautics 10y ago
I'm just going to say while clearly there is a problem with a small but not insignificant minority of racists hijacking political agendas in the UK (but what country doesn't have that) - I don't see how being a part of the EU has a realistically significant effect an agenda of "social justice". That's an awfully weak crutch you're leaning on.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  Basically, as much as the Tories are attempting to dismantle as many of the systems that reduce inequality as possible, we currently have a strong body of law based primarily on EU Directives and ECHR judgements which provides a minimal amount of protection to some of the worst-off.[0] Leaving the EU means that the former are now subject to direct attack, and the latter's meaning and intent might reasonably be bent to breaking point - people seem to conflate the EU and the European Council a lot, and that confusion may allow our Government to get away with a lot given that people will argue that they voted for less international oversight and more ability to decide for ourselves. Being part of the EU was a bit of a legal buffer. [0] Particularly interesting to me personally, much all our trans-related law is heavily influenced by the EU (although in Scotland, our Government has taken transgender protections to heart, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's not quite so rosy).
  - dnautics 10y ago
    Isn't the ECHR is distinct from the EU, I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think leaving the EU changes the UK's relationship with the ECHR (Iceland and Switzerland and Norway, which are not in the EU are in the ECHR).
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      Yes, technically - the ECHR uses the European Council as its enforcement arm. The European Council is separate from the EU. This isn't particularly widely understood, which is what's going to cause the issues - if people believe that they voted to be apart from the rest of Europe politically, the idea that we still have to adhere to judgements from a court that is not a part of the UK justice system is going to be unpalatable to many, whether they actually voted for that or not. The result of that is going to be pressure on politicians to see how much the Government can get away with ignoring or only partially implementing ECHR judgements. Given that the only thing the European Council can actually do is put political pressure on us, it's possible that the Government might have a lot of leeway. Additionally, both the Conservatives and UKIP agree on wanting to step away from the ECHR (and thus the European Council) entirely, with the Conservatives wanting to implement our own Bill of Rights to be implemented by British courts.

dnautics 10y ago

I'm just going to say while clearly there is a problem with a small but not insignificant minority of racists hijacking political agendas in the UK (but what country doesn't have that) - I don't see how being a part of the EU has a realistically significant effect an agenda of "social justice". That's an awfully weak crutch you're leaning on.

vertex-four 10y ago
Basically, as much as the Tories are attempting to dismantle as many of the systems that reduce inequality as possible, we currently have a strong body of law based primarily on EU Directives and ECHR judgements which provides a minimal amount of protection to some of the worst-off.[0] Leaving the EU means that the former are now subject to direct attack, and the latter's meaning and intent might reasonably be bent to breaking point - people seem to conflate the EU and the European Council a lot, and that confusion may allow our Government to get away with a lot given that people will argue that they voted for less international oversight and more ability to decide for ourselves. Being part of the EU was a bit of a legal buffer. [0] Particularly interesting to me personally, much all our trans-related law is heavily influenced by the EU (although in Scotland, our Government has taken transgender protections to heart, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's not quite so rosy).
- dnautics 10y ago
  Isn't the ECHR is distinct from the EU, I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think leaving the EU changes the UK's relationship with the ECHR (Iceland and Switzerland and Norway, which are not in the EU are in the ECHR).
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    Yes, technically - the ECHR uses the European Council as its enforcement arm. The European Council is separate from the EU. This isn't particularly widely understood, which is what's going to cause the issues - if people believe that they voted to be apart from the rest of Europe politically, the idea that we still have to adhere to judgements from a court that is not a part of the UK justice system is going to be unpalatable to many, whether they actually voted for that or not. The result of that is going to be pressure on politicians to see how much the Government can get away with ignoring or only partially implementing ECHR judgements. Given that the only thing the European Council can actually do is put political pressure on us, it's possible that the Government might have a lot of leeway. Additionally, both the Conservatives and UKIP agree on wanting to step away from the ECHR (and thus the European Council) entirely, with the Conservatives wanting to implement our own Bill of Rights to be implemented by British courts.