7 ms·

Government subsidy (and occasional gov't supported monopolies like Bell Labs) is responsible for the software industry. This is very well-documented. Public tak

Government subsidy (and occasional gov't supported monopolies like Bell Labs) is responsible for the software industry. This is very well-documented. Public takes the biggest risks, then rewards are privatized. Hence the economic importance of programs like DARPA. http://marianamazzucato.com/the-entrepreneurial-state/ http://marianamazzucato.com/the-entrepreneurial-state/

awt 10y ago
How do you know tech wouldn't be more advanced than it is now if the public hadn't been forced to pay for government science?
- lunchTime42 10y ago
  True free market approach would be to have two variants of running buisnesses run against one another.
  - hypeibole 10y ago
    Isn't that mostly what happened? US pushing science and education during the Cold War to compete against the USSR?
WalterBright 10y ago
Hmm, I've been in the software industry for 40 years. Never got a dollar in subsidy.
- drauh 10y ago
  Because anecdote == data?
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    What significant subsidies did Microsoft/Google/Apple/Oracle/etc. get? Also, Edison invented the vacuum tube upon which it is all based. I read a biography of him, and he never got a subsidy. Shouldn't he get all the credit?
    - hobs 10y ago
      Google started university research project with NSF grants helping them to create the goliath we see today, they probably would not exist otherwise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google#Early_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google#Early_histor... Also I would call most of the government projects that Oracle is on subsidies considering how little value they deliver and how much they cost.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        Yahoo and AltaVista was there before Google. To say we wouldn't have search engines without the NSF is not believable. The page rank paper did not require an NSF grant. Selling to the government is not a subsidy.
        hobs 10y ago
        That's fine to say, just answering the question of "what significant subsidies did x get" where x did get subsidies. There are probably many companies that make your point much better is all.
    - cbd1984 10y ago
      > What significant subsidies did Microsoft/Google/Apple/Oracle/etc. get? Existing in a country where a private company is a profit center as opposed to something for bandits to loot?
    - EGreg 10y ago
      Do you mean direct cash subsidies? Or do you mean we don't need copyright protection, limited liability and bankruptcy protection allowing entrepreneurs to take risks, laws protecting investors and corporations, public education system, and so forth? Why would Edison want all the credit? Newton said he only saw as far as he did by standing on the shoulders of giants. We are all inheriting the accumulated wealth and knowledge of all the people who came before us. Why not the people around immediately before us who built the society we live in?
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Ever use UNIX?
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    I used DEC systems, then PC systems. I tried SCO Unix, but it was terrible and abandoned it. Consider also that the DEC's 1967 TOPS-10 operating system led to RT-11 to CP/M to MS-DOS to NT to Windows 10. I'm not aware of government subsidy having any role in that.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Just because you can't trace a government dollar directly to Windows 10 doesn't negate the (correct) point that government subsidies directly resulted in the internet and software industry we have today.
    - bluejekyll 10y ago
      I'm sorry, but did you just imply that DOS was better than UNIX? I get saying that Windows was a better user environment (maybe) than what existed in UNIX at the time, though I was fine in FVWM. But I don't think I can take someone seriously that thinks DOS is better than UNIX.
- cbd1984 10y ago
  How much has the Internet done for your business that a smaller, proprietary network wouldn't have? Metcalfe's Law only kicks into high gear when everyone is capable of joining the same network. If there are three or four proprietary networks with limited and expensive communications between them, growth is hobbled. Or, to take another tack, how much has access to clean water done for you? How much has access to a house that isn't burgled done for you? Just because you personally never received a check doesn't mean the government hasn't given you benefit.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > How much has the Internet done for your business that a smaller, proprietary network wouldn't have? Why do you think other networks wouldn't have grown global? > If there are three or four proprietary networks with limited and expensive communications between them, growth is hobbled. I agree, and there was tremendous pressure to interconnect them. The "inter" part of internet is the result of that, it's why it's called the internet rather than Arpanet. Numerous packet switching networks were developed in the 1960s, not just Arpanet.
    - cbd1984 10y ago
      > Why do you think other networks wouldn't have grown global? Because privately-run networks have to turn a profit by the end of the fiscal year, if not sooner. It's too easy for a company to engage in profit-seeking behavior which harms long-term growth, like demanding fees to interoperate with it. The core Internet protocol suite, OTOH, is completely specified by RFCs which are free to read and implement.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        FidoNet went global.
        cbd1984 10y ago
        FidoNet was and is an interesting system, but it relies on a system which is a public utility and/or publicly subsidized in most of the world: the telephone network. Dial-up networks like FidoNet only work if there's enough phone service to bother with.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago
  There are SBA loans for small businesses. They benefit non-software companies too - your local McDonald's is probably "government-subsidized" in this sense. The local McDonald's is going to have an easier time getting said loan, but the program is open to any business. Local and federal governments need developers to write software and will use contractors, but that's not really a subsidy. The NSF will occasionally fund research that may or may not use software. For example, I see that the Sage math software has a few grants listed: http://www.sagemath.org/development-ack.html http://www.sagemath.org/development-ack.html I don't know that any of this really supports the grandparent's comment, though. McDonald's is closer to being government-subsidized than anything in the software industry.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    SBA loans exist, but they are not specific to any industry. I'd be interested if you could show a connection between SBA loans and the incredible growth of the software industry.
WalterBright 10y ago
Are you arguing that the free market is incapable of inventing networking? What about FidoNet, BIX, CompuServe, Prodigy, MCImail, Ethernet, RBBS, etc.? Even I, before I'd heard of DARPA, invented a network (it sucked, but still). The first thought anyone with 2 computers had was to connect them together - i.e. a network.

awt 10y ago

How do you know tech wouldn't be more advanced than it is now if the public hadn't been forced to pay for government science?

lunchTime42 10y ago
True free market approach would be to have two variants of running buisnesses run against one another.
- hypeibole 10y ago
  Isn't that mostly what happened? US pushing science and education during the Cold War to compete against the USSR?

WalterBright 10y ago

Hmm, I've been in the software industry for 40 years. Never got a dollar in subsidy.

drauh 10y ago
Because anecdote == data?
- WalterBright 10y ago
  What significant subsidies did Microsoft/Google/Apple/Oracle/etc. get? Also, Edison invented the vacuum tube upon which it is all based. I read a biography of him, and he never got a subsidy. Shouldn't he get all the credit?
  - hobs 10y ago
    Google started university research project with NSF grants helping them to create the goliath we see today, they probably would not exist otherwise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google#Early_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google#Early_histor... Also I would call most of the government projects that Oracle is on subsidies considering how little value they deliver and how much they cost.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      Yahoo and AltaVista was there before Google. To say we wouldn't have search engines without the NSF is not believable. The page rank paper did not require an NSF grant. Selling to the government is not a subsidy.
      - hobs 10y ago
        That's fine to say, just answering the question of "what significant subsidies did x get" where x did get subsidies. There are probably many companies that make your point much better is all.
  - cbd1984 10y ago
    > What significant subsidies did Microsoft/Google/Apple/Oracle/etc. get? Existing in a country where a private company is a profit center as opposed to something for bandits to loot?
  - EGreg 10y ago
    Do you mean direct cash subsidies? Or do you mean we don't need copyright protection, limited liability and bankruptcy protection allowing entrepreneurs to take risks, laws protecting investors and corporations, public education system, and so forth? Why would Edison want all the credit? Newton said he only saw as far as he did by standing on the shoulders of giants. We are all inheriting the accumulated wealth and knowledge of all the people who came before us. Why not the people around immediately before us who built the society we live in?
Spooky23 10y ago
Ever use UNIX?
- WalterBright 10y ago
  I used DEC systems, then PC systems. I tried SCO Unix, but it was terrible and abandoned it. Consider also that the DEC's 1967 TOPS-10 operating system led to RT-11 to CP/M to MS-DOS to NT to Windows 10. I'm not aware of government subsidy having any role in that.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Just because you can't trace a government dollar directly to Windows 10 doesn't negate the (correct) point that government subsidies directly resulted in the internet and software industry we have today.
  - bluejekyll 10y ago
    I'm sorry, but did you just imply that DOS was better than UNIX? I get saying that Windows was a better user environment (maybe) than what existed in UNIX at the time, though I was fine in FVWM. But I don't think I can take someone seriously that thinks DOS is better than UNIX.
cbd1984 10y ago
How much has the Internet done for your business that a smaller, proprietary network wouldn't have? Metcalfe's Law only kicks into high gear when everyone is capable of joining the same network. If there are three or four proprietary networks with limited and expensive communications between them, growth is hobbled. Or, to take another tack, how much has access to clean water done for you? How much has access to a house that isn't burgled done for you? Just because you personally never received a check doesn't mean the government hasn't given you benefit.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  > How much has the Internet done for your business that a smaller, proprietary network wouldn't have? Why do you think other networks wouldn't have grown global? > If there are three or four proprietary networks with limited and expensive communications between them, growth is hobbled. I agree, and there was tremendous pressure to interconnect them. The "inter" part of internet is the result of that, it's why it's called the internet rather than Arpanet. Numerous packet switching networks were developed in the 1960s, not just Arpanet.
  - cbd1984 10y ago
    > Why do you think other networks wouldn't have grown global? Because privately-run networks have to turn a profit by the end of the fiscal year, if not sooner. It's too easy for a company to engage in profit-seeking behavior which harms long-term growth, like demanding fees to interoperate with it. The core Internet protocol suite, OTOH, is completely specified by RFCs which are free to read and implement.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      FidoNet went global.
      - cbd1984 10y ago
        FidoNet was and is an interesting system, but it relies on a system which is a public utility and/or publicly subsidized in most of the world: the telephone network. Dial-up networks like FidoNet only work if there's enough phone service to bother with.
MichaelBurge 10y ago
There are SBA loans for small businesses. They benefit non-software companies too - your local McDonald's is probably "government-subsidized" in this sense. The local McDonald's is going to have an easier time getting said loan, but the program is open to any business. Local and federal governments need developers to write software and will use contractors, but that's not really a subsidy. The NSF will occasionally fund research that may or may not use software. For example, I see that the Sage math software has a few grants listed: http://www.sagemath.org/development-ack.html http://www.sagemath.org/development-ack.html I don't know that any of this really supports the grandparent's comment, though. McDonald's is closer to being government-subsidized than anything in the software industry.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  SBA loans exist, but they are not specific to any industry. I'd be interested if you could show a connection between SBA loans and the incredible growth of the software industry.

WalterBright 10y ago

Are you arguing that the free market is incapable of inventing networking? What about FidoNet, BIX, CompuServe, Prodigy, MCImail, Ethernet, RBBS, etc.? Even I, before I'd heard of DARPA, invented a network (it sucked, but still). The first thought anyone with 2 computers had was to connect them together - i.e. a network.