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In my opinion, the most interesting thing he said in that speech is that he doesn't plan to trigger article 50 immediately. That will be controversial in both,

In my opinion, the most interesting thing he said in that speech is that he doesn't plan to trigger article 50 immediately. That will be controversial in both, the EU and Britain I think.

gonvaled 10y ago
If the UK starts muddling through, the EU should firmly act and suspend UK membership: we can not allow uncertainty, and a future ex-member abusing the good will of the rest of the EU. Cameron promised to trigger article 50 immediately: if he does not, we should force him to.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Cameron promised to trigger article 50 immediately Did he? edit: it seems to as the following quote is frequent (and from as early as February) though I can't find an original citation: > Mr Cameron previously said he would trigger Article 50 as soon as possible after a Leave vote though it follows up with this interesting > but Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who led the campaign to get Britain out of the EU have said he should not rush into it. And the following "wtf-worthy" declaration: > They also said they wanted to make immediate changes before the UK actually leaves the EU, such as curbing the power of EU judges and limiting the free movement of workers, potentially in breach of the UK's treaty obligations.
- youngtaff 10y ago
  There is no process for the EU to suspend the UK or for the EU to trigger article 50
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    You are not suggesting that the UK leaving the EU will be done on UK terms only, do you? Like "we get that funding chunk and then we leave" or "we attend that EU parliament session and then we leave" or "we don't say how or when, we'll just leave, whenever it suits us, and please don't disturb because I am too busy doing important things which you can not hope to comprehend". How long do you think the EU will wait for the princess to make up her mind? I do not know the exact mechanisms by which the EU can force the UK out, but one thing I know: we can not allow us the luxury of keeping the enemy inside the gates. I for one hope this is done with asap. Out is out.
    - youngtaff 10y ago
      The UK gets to decide when they trigger the process but the 'official' process can't start until the UK triggers it. The referendum isn't actually legally binding so in theory article 50 may never get triggered, though as the vote is a reaction against politicians, that would be political suicide. The final terms will be the result of negotiation and I don't think the UK actually has a good position. The referendum was always a trap, if UK votes out we're probably screwed, if we voted in it becomes a signal for the political elites for even more political integration (and there seems limited support for that amongst the actual people of Europe) Got to remember the politicians of the EU don't work for the people - witness how they shafted the people of Greece to save German and French banks, how TTIP is being negotiated in secret and hands more power to corporations etc.
      - gonvaled 10y ago
        > The UK gets to decide when they trigger the process but the 'official' process can't start until the UK triggers it. If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement, not taking decisions, and basically torpedoing the functioning of the EU, I hope the EU is going to do something about it. The UK was bad enough for the EU while it was in, let's not allow it to destroy the rest of the EU while it is leaving. There are mechanism to force the UK out now. One would be to marginalize them from any decision taking, any negotiation, and meeting that the EU participates in, internally or with partners. I do not know the exact mechanisms that the EU can use for this, but I know how I would deal with this in my partnerships: "sorry, I forgot to call you!" "Oh, I thought you were in holidays!" "Did you really not receive that memo? So sorry!" and the like. If the UK starts playing dirty, we should too. Out is out: we do not want the UK in the EU anymore. Please pack and leave.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        > If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement If they don't trigger Article 50, they have exactly the same role in the EU as if they never chose to leave (except that they lose the special concessions that they just got approved which were contingent on a "Remain" result in the referendum, which, AFAICT, is the only actual legal effect of referendum.) Once they trigger Article 50, they are out in 2 years (barring an agreement to extend the process.) The only purpose of an exit agreement is to provide an alternative to the default exit terms, which would, e.g., leave trade relations between Britain and the EU reverting to WTO rules.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  Why?, we should have our cards in order before we do so.
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    You can try, but I do not think it is in the interest of the EU to let this drag for years, so we should force the UK to get out asap. Your interests and the EU's interests are now very loosely alligned, and in this particular matter probably in contradiction.
    - lmm 10y ago
      I think dragging it out and muddling through probably suits the EU's interests very well - after all that's very much what they've been doing when dealing with Greece.
      - gonvaled 10y ago
        I dont understand your Greece reference, but the EU has zero interest in having a blocker in its rangs, and politicians are acting accordingly: “EU leaders call for UK to leave as soon as possible“ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/europe-plunged-crisis-britain-votes-leave-eu-european-union http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/europe-plung... And even clearer: “Top EU leader: we want Britain out as soon as possible“ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leader-we-want-britain-out-as-soon-as-possible http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leade... This is no joke. This is an existential threat to the EU, and we must act firmly. I fully support these statements. So, who is the dragger here? Get your house inmediately in order and leave.
tonyedgecombe 10y ago
I wonder if he is hoping for more EU concessions and another referendum. About the only thing that would do it is some restriction on free movement, I don't know how likely that is.

In my opinion, the most interesting thing he said in that speech is that he doesn't plan to trigger article 50 immediately. That will be controversial in both, the EU and Britain I think.

gonvaled 10y ago

If the UK starts muddling through, the EU should firmly act and suspend UK membership: we can not allow uncertainty, and a future ex-member abusing the good will of the rest of the EU. Cameron promised to trigger article 50 immediately: if he does not, we should force him to.

masklinn 10y ago
> Cameron promised to trigger article 50 immediately Did he? edit: it seems to as the following quote is frequent (and from as early as February) though I can't find an original citation: > Mr Cameron previously said he would trigger Article 50 as soon as possible after a Leave vote though it follows up with this interesting > but Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who led the campaign to get Britain out of the EU have said he should not rush into it. And the following "wtf-worthy" declaration: > They also said they wanted to make immediate changes before the UK actually leaves the EU, such as curbing the power of EU judges and limiting the free movement of workers, potentially in breach of the UK's treaty obligations.
youngtaff 10y ago
There is no process for the EU to suspend the UK or for the EU to trigger article 50
- gonvaled 10y ago
  You are not suggesting that the UK leaving the EU will be done on UK terms only, do you? Like "we get that funding chunk and then we leave" or "we attend that EU parliament session and then we leave" or "we don't say how or when, we'll just leave, whenever it suits us, and please don't disturb because I am too busy doing important things which you can not hope to comprehend". How long do you think the EU will wait for the princess to make up her mind? I do not know the exact mechanisms by which the EU can force the UK out, but one thing I know: we can not allow us the luxury of keeping the enemy inside the gates. I for one hope this is done with asap. Out is out.
  - youngtaff 10y ago
    The UK gets to decide when they trigger the process but the 'official' process can't start until the UK triggers it. The referendum isn't actually legally binding so in theory article 50 may never get triggered, though as the vote is a reaction against politicians, that would be political suicide. The final terms will be the result of negotiation and I don't think the UK actually has a good position. The referendum was always a trap, if UK votes out we're probably screwed, if we voted in it becomes a signal for the political elites for even more political integration (and there seems limited support for that amongst the actual people of Europe) Got to remember the politicians of the EU don't work for the people - witness how they shafted the people of Greece to save German and French banks, how TTIP is being negotiated in secret and hands more power to corporations etc.
    - gonvaled 10y ago
      > The UK gets to decide when they trigger the process but the 'official' process can't start until the UK triggers it. If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement, not taking decisions, and basically torpedoing the functioning of the EU, I hope the EU is going to do something about it. The UK was bad enough for the EU while it was in, let's not allow it to destroy the rest of the EU while it is leaving. There are mechanism to force the UK out now. One would be to marginalize them from any decision taking, any negotiation, and meeting that the EU participates in, internally or with partners. I do not know the exact mechanisms that the EU can use for this, but I know how I would deal with this in my partnerships: "sorry, I forgot to call you!" "Oh, I thought you were in holidays!" "Did you really not receive that memo? So sorry!" and the like. If the UK starts playing dirty, we should too. Out is out: we do not want the UK in the EU anymore. Please pack and leave.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement If they don't trigger Article 50, they have exactly the same role in the EU as if they never chose to leave (except that they lose the special concessions that they just got approved which were contingent on a "Remain" result in the referendum, which, AFAICT, is the only actual legal effect of referendum.) Once they trigger Article 50, they are out in 2 years (barring an agreement to extend the process.) The only purpose of an exit agreement is to provide an alternative to the default exit terms, which would, e.g., leave trade relations between Britain and the EU reverting to WTO rules.
UK-AL 10y ago
Why?, we should have our cards in order before we do so.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  You can try, but I do not think it is in the interest of the EU to let this drag for years, so we should force the UK to get out asap. Your interests and the EU's interests are now very loosely alligned, and in this particular matter probably in contradiction.
  - lmm 10y ago
    I think dragging it out and muddling through probably suits the EU's interests very well - after all that's very much what they've been doing when dealing with Greece.
    - gonvaled 10y ago
      I dont understand your Greece reference, but the EU has zero interest in having a blocker in its rangs, and politicians are acting accordingly: “EU leaders call for UK to leave as soon as possible“ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/europe-plunged-crisis-britain-votes-leave-eu-european-union http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/europe-plung... And even clearer: “Top EU leader: we want Britain out as soon as possible“ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leader-we-want-britain-out-as-soon-as-possible http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leade... This is no joke. This is an existential threat to the EU, and we must act firmly. I fully support these statements. So, who is the dragger here? Get your house inmediately in order and leave.

tonyedgecombe 10y ago

I wonder if he is hoping for more EU concessions and another referendum. About the only thing that would do it is some restriction on free movement, I don't know how likely that is.