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> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share? The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is n
by cabalamat 10y ago
> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share?
The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.
- Khaine 10y agoYeah and it died with the Western Roman Empire
- pvaldes 10y agoWe still study and use extensively the Roman Law and the Common Law in fact. The origin to a lot of our current laws can be easily traced to Roman Empire.
- Khaine 10y agoI'm well aware of that fact. But after the collapse of the western roman empire, Europe was divided between germanic tribal kings, and those kings have fought amongst themselves ever since. Even when one of those kings (Charlemagne) nearly united all of the roman lands together it collapsed into in-fighting. There is almost a thousand years of cultural difference between each of the member states of the EU. I think in the future a political union will happen, but it takes all of europe to be united as a people, to have common cause and that is a long way off. Today every member of the EU still fights for their national interest. I think Yes Minister said it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI
- spraak 10y ago> It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species. Bleh, gross
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rubber_duck 10y agoUmm, Scandinavians were never a part of it, the fact that Christianity has 3 major splits and the history of it proves how divided they were/are. And that's not even counting the bordering influences of Muslims like Ottomans/Moors. Also there's the ex-communist countries for a more recent cultural split.
- return0 10y agoChristianity is the foundation of the common european identity. Even today, its being used to contrast "us" against "them" (muslim immigrants).
- pluma 10y agoI'd be carefully about calling it Christianity. "Our" modern values are really more the values of the reformation and Enlightenment, which if anything were more of a step away from fundamentalist religion to a more secular worldview.
- return0 10y agoYes, absolutely, but i consider that a continuation of the same culture, since it essentially grew out of it. Given that secular enlightenment values have now gone global, it is hard to trace use them as an identity i believe.
- pantalaimon 10y ago> Given that secular enlightenment values have now gone global, it is hard to trace use them as an identity i believe. Is that really the case? Seems more like wishful thinking to me. Christianity was spread globally through missionaries. liberal enlightenment - not so much.
- return0 10y ago> liberal enlightenment - not so much. Colonialism? Or else why does the UN extend throughout the globe?
- witty_username 10y agoHow is it the greatest achievement? There are many other civilizations.
- cabalamat 10y agoYes but only one of them invented computers, the internet, the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, the jet engine, the steam turbine, aircraft, modern medicine, anasthetic dentistry, etc. If it wasn't for the West, humanity would still be mired in dirt, poverty and ignorance.
- Chinjut 10y agoExactly how far would Europe have gotten with inventing those things if it hadn't built upon the numerous mathematical, scientific, and technological achievements of India, China, the Arab world, etc.? [Perhaps, counterfactually cut off from the rest of the world, Europe would've eventually rediscovered everything on their own anyway. Well, the same can be supposed in reverse, then...] If the bulk of technological accomplishments of recent centuries were made in European and European-derived countries in recent centuries... well, that's because those happened to be the affluent regions of the times, the result of being the ones that colonized and ran roughshod over the rest of the world. But there's no reason to suppose non-white people were/are somehow intrinsically less capable of innovation.
- tremon 10y agothere's no reason to suppose non-white people were/are somehow intrinsically less capable of innovation. The GP didn't say that they were.
- Chinjut 10y agoNot explicitly, but it is implied by what was said, particularly in context. European civilization invented all these great things and non-Europeans on their own would be mired in dirt and ignorance, therefore European civilization is humanity's greatest achievement, etc.
- coldtea 10y ago>It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species. This belief, and a horrid past (and present) of exploiting, plundering, murdering, etc all over the world, from the Crusades and colonial times to the Holocaust and onwards, is what makes it one of the most bloody and backwards "achievements of the human species". Some exhibits from the "greatest achievement of the human species": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- pharke 10y agoYou can make a laundry list equally as terrible for any civilization that has ever existed. Atrocities are not limited to one particular culture, they are a shared human failing. I would argue that the character of a culture is not set by its lowest points but by how it claws its way back towards the light of liberté, égalité, fraternité.
- coldtea 10y ago>You can make a laundry list equally as terrible for any civilization that has ever existed. A lot of civilizations at worse were at war with some other. This list is like a cancer spreading over the whole planet -- including some of its "achievements" that can wipe out the whole planet literally, like nukes. The Holocaust, for example, doesn't leave much to trivialize. Plus at least those other civilizations had a lot of excuses (ignorance etc). Most of those things in the list have done in the era of "lights" and "science" with no excuse but pure greed. >I would argue that the character of a culture is not set by its lowest points but by how it claws its way back towards the light of liberté, égalité, fraternité I would argue that liberté, égalité, fraternité is just a way of seeing the world of a particular culture, not the be all end all of morality and civilization. Plus it has been a hypocritical slogan for centuries, one used to beat other peoples to make them "civilized" or "bring democracy" (the white man's burden), when underneath it was profits and greed doing the work.
- nickik 10y agoThe Roman Empire had no cultural identity. People in Gaul had nothing in common with people in Egypt. The most Roman did is spread some Roman values to the elites but even that was often very thin. Christendom is totally divided with constant wars. The values are not uniform and christen philosophy was never particularly great. Rejection of most of those values defines modernity.
- bernawil 10y agoYes it did. Romanization was a real thing. Much more so in the last centuries when both Galo-romans and Egyptians where christians. Even after the city of Rome was no longer relevant in the empire other provinces still produced staunch Roman patriots. The Illyrians are the best example. In the darkest times of the third century crisis the greek speaking romans from Syria formed guerrillas to tackle the Persians during the collapse of the goverment.
- nickik 10y agoYou don't need to be a Roman patriot to oppose the Persians. That said, yes Romanization was real, but it impacted small population and it mostly suck in the Med, and did not spread to far into places like Britain. Making a connection between the Roman Empire and current Europe is quite a stretch. Much of the Empire was not even in current EU countries, Turkey, Egypt and all the richest parts.
- bernawil 10y ago>like Britain Yes it did. Two times the British garrisons took matters into their own hands and hailed their own Augustus. The last time, they haieled Constantin III who went to Gaul to fight barbarians and then bargained recognition from the court in Ravenna as co-ruler. I think this shows that the Britons did see themselves as Romans and that they cared about the Empire as a whole. >Much of the Empire was not even in current EU countries, Turkey, Egypt and all the richest parts Sure, muslim countries are not children of the Roman Empire. The empire was, pretty much but not only, a container for hellenized mediterraneans, kind of what Islam rejects.
- fsloth 10y agoI'm sorry, but I think that trivializes huge chunks of history up to a point where it's more imprecise than correct. I think the cultural roots go to Greece, not Rome. Rome basically was a logistical and administrative juggernaut but I'm not aware of anything new they created - Roman law being the only exception, I think, which created basis for the laws in a large group of european polities. After Rome, there was the period which is called the dark ages, but probably mostly only looks like that in the context of the exceptional developments which started after it. 1400:s europe finally was done with dark ages, and the energetic cities embraced innovations from around the world (including material from greece antiquity preserved in the muslim civilization). The catholic church did not really do much to help that progress. You will notice that e.g. industrialization was fastest in the countries where the church did not have as much power - the mostly protestant ones. Big parts of what we call 'western civilization' was innovated ny guys despite the stifling effect of the church on sapient inquiry. In the border regions where a bunch of tiny polities that imitated and admired the developments of biggest neighbours. My point is, just saying 'rome and christian culture' is giving undue prominence just to a one cultural development that moulded europe.
- dang 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11967833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11967833 and marked it off-topic.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y agoHow the hell is this off-topic, whereas it is an exact answer for the OP comment?!
- gsklee 10y agoDisgusting. All the hate crimes after Brexit suggest that Western Civilization is not as advanced as you'd like to believe.