4 ms·

* EU has got to deliver * It needs to show that it can provide solutions for the euro financial crisis and the refugee crisis. Solutions that are sound, long t

by chvid 10y ago

* EU has got to deliver * It needs to show that it can provide solutions for the euro financial crisis and the refugee crisis. Solutions that are sound, long term and have popular backing. It has shown that it cannot. And thus we europeans are better of with a smaller, simpler european cooperation of independent nation states. At least this should be the very real threat the EU politicians should operate under. We need a better EU.

kabes 10y ago
These are difficult problems without a good answer. Will the smaller independent nations be able to provide a better answer to these problems? I seriously doubt they will.
- dageshi 10y ago
  In the case of the euro crisis smaller independent nations have already proven that they can. The UK is not in the euro, it was hit as bad if not worse than any other EU nation during the financial crisis but because it still retained control of its currency and had a functioning central bank it has dealt with that crisis while the flaws of the euro are still unresolved and have effectively been brushed under the rug. Make no mistake, if the EU had competently dealt with the issues with the euro the UK would not have left.
  - chvid 10y ago
    Yes, exactly. USA, Australia, Canada, Japan ... all had their challenges with immigration and fiscal/monetary issues and have been able to find suitable solutions without their federation/country falling apart.
    - wahrsagevogel 10y ago
      Since the EU does not have a common fiscal policy the challenges are not the same.
grive 10y ago
> And thus we europeans are better of with a smaller, simpler european cooperation of independent nation states. They can only, by definition, find a worse solution than EU. The migrant crisis needs a solution at the scale of the continent. Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently. Without the EU, Greece, Italy, the Balkans would be left on their own to deal with the migrants. Northern and eastern nations would tell them to fuck off and keep their money. That's it. EU is the primary channel for negotiating a long term solution. If it cannot find one, no one can.
- restalis 10y ago
  My impression is that the migrant problem developed itself especially because there was the idea that Europe has to accept migrants (which just invited them in more to a level that surpassed the capacity of individual nations).
- stale2002 10y ago
  "Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently." They absolutely can! Britain is now able to say "no more migrants are allowed into the UK", and it will now happen! That is a working long term solution for Britain. This doesn't help OTHER EU countries of course. But why should Britain care? Those countries got themselves into this mess, so they can solve it on their own.
  - throwawaysocks 10y ago
    Exactly! Britain vehemently protested the US invasion of Iraq while France and other EU countries egged them on. \s
- SkyMarshal 10y ago
  >Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently. Not sure I buy that assertion. It actually seems easier for the handful of small political units directly affected to decide and act on than a giant EU bureaucracy. Which in fact is true in many other instances as well.
- 10y ago
mh-cx 10y ago
> EU has got to deliver I think this is the most important misconception GB always had about the EU. It's a union which means, having a well tempered partnership should be the goal - not cherry-picking like the UK often did. Or, to resemble a famous quote: Ask not, what the EU can do for you - ask what you can do for the EU!
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  As someone who voted to remain I have to say if I was from one of the other EU countries I would be happy with the result. Short term it's going to be difficult for the EU but if they can hold things together it'll be good for them to have gotten rid of a partner that isn't fully in and wants special privileges. That just creates friction.
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    100% with you. If contagion can be avoided, the EU got today its indepence day.
    - chvid 10y ago
      I can give you guys the Danish perspective. We are not ready for further expansion of the EU project. If this causes the EU to split in two parts: A smaller but stronger EU politcal/economical union and a broader but weak trade cooperation amogst european countries. Then Denmark will probably end up outside the political union. We too had a number of referendums, more than one voting "no to EU" but always our representive polticians chose to negotiate a deal and create a new referendum which just scraped a yes. The UK being out adds legitimacy to the "being out" case which EU opponents in Denmark and other places will use. The dissatisfaction with the EU will much more visibile after this.
      - gonvaled 10y ago
        That is sad. Blaming the EU for what esentially is a global recession, a period of wealth redistribution fostered by globalization and technology, and massive demographic movements caused by multiple crisis around the world. Getting out of the EU will not solve any of that. It could be that isolated countries will do better economicaly, and will be able to isolate themselves from the problems happening around them. It could be that you stay rich, or become richer, by closing your eyes and ears to the suffering happening around you, while the rest are left carrying the burden. How sad. The EU is the chance of Europe to be heard around the world, a great project being squandered by some right wingers opportunists.

by chvid 10y ago

kabes 10y ago

These are difficult problems without a good answer. Will the smaller independent nations be able to provide a better answer to these problems? I seriously doubt they will.

dageshi 10y ago
In the case of the euro crisis smaller independent nations have already proven that they can. The UK is not in the euro, it was hit as bad if not worse than any other EU nation during the financial crisis but because it still retained control of its currency and had a functioning central bank it has dealt with that crisis while the flaws of the euro are still unresolved and have effectively been brushed under the rug. Make no mistake, if the EU had competently dealt with the issues with the euro the UK would not have left.
- chvid 10y ago
  Yes, exactly. USA, Australia, Canada, Japan ... all had their challenges with immigration and fiscal/monetary issues and have been able to find suitable solutions without their federation/country falling apart.
  - wahrsagevogel 10y ago
    Since the EU does not have a common fiscal policy the challenges are not the same.

grive 10y ago

> And thus we europeans are better of with a smaller, simpler european cooperation of independent nation states. They can only, by definition, find a worse solution than EU. The migrant crisis needs a solution at the scale of the continent. Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently. Without the EU, Greece, Italy, the Balkans would be left on their own to deal with the migrants. Northern and eastern nations would tell them to fuck off and keep their money. That's it. EU is the primary channel for negotiating a long term solution. If it cannot find one, no one can.

restalis 10y ago
My impression is that the migrant problem developed itself especially because there was the idea that Europe has to accept migrants (which just invited them in more to a level that surpassed the capacity of individual nations).
stale2002 10y ago
"Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently." They absolutely can! Britain is now able to say "no more migrants are allowed into the UK", and it will now happen! That is a working long term solution for Britain. This doesn't help OTHER EU countries of course. But why should Britain care? Those countries got themselves into this mess, so they can solve it on their own.
- throwawaysocks 10y ago
  Exactly! Britain vehemently protested the US invasion of Iraq while France and other EU countries egged them on. \s
SkyMarshal 10y ago
>Individual nation state cannot deal with a crisis of this magnitude efficiently. Not sure I buy that assertion. It actually seems easier for the handful of small political units directly affected to decide and act on than a giant EU bureaucracy. Which in fact is true in many other instances as well.
10y ago

mh-cx 10y ago

> EU has got to deliver I think this is the most important misconception GB always had about the EU. It's a union which means, having a well tempered partnership should be the goal - not cherry-picking like the UK often did. Or, to resemble a famous quote: Ask not, what the EU can do for you - ask what you can do for the EU!

k-mcgrady 10y ago
As someone who voted to remain I have to say if I was from one of the other EU countries I would be happy with the result. Short term it's going to be difficult for the EU but if they can hold things together it'll be good for them to have gotten rid of a partner that isn't fully in and wants special privileges. That just creates friction.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  100% with you. If contagion can be avoided, the EU got today its indepence day.
  - chvid 10y ago
    I can give you guys the Danish perspective. We are not ready for further expansion of the EU project. If this causes the EU to split in two parts: A smaller but stronger EU politcal/economical union and a broader but weak trade cooperation amogst european countries. Then Denmark will probably end up outside the political union. We too had a number of referendums, more than one voting "no to EU" but always our representive polticians chose to negotiate a deal and create a new referendum which just scraped a yes. The UK being out adds legitimacy to the "being out" case which EU opponents in Denmark and other places will use. The dissatisfaction with the EU will much more visibile after this.
    - gonvaled 10y ago
      That is sad. Blaming the EU for what esentially is a global recession, a period of wealth redistribution fostered by globalization and technology, and massive demographic movements caused by multiple crisis around the world. Getting out of the EU will not solve any of that. It could be that isolated countries will do better economicaly, and will be able to isolate themselves from the problems happening around them. It could be that you stay rich, or become richer, by closing your eyes and ears to the suffering happening around you, while the rest are left carrying the burden. How sad. The EU is the chance of Europe to be heard around the world, a great project being squandered by some right wingers opportunists.