4 ms·

>The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. Why not? No movement is absolutely "free" of course,

>The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. Why not? No movement is absolutely "free" of course, but we get lots of goods from (e.g.) China, while it is not that easy to immigrate into China. There are many big trading nations that are not at all that free about moving into them (for instance, Singapore). The people in UK seems to think that their island is rather full. Those of us in the remaining EU need to reassess the idea to push deeper and deeper political integration towards a federal wannabe-superpower.

paganel 10y ago
> while it is not that easy to immigrate into China. Care to mention why? In my quite limited circle of acquaintances I have 3 people who now work in China, and they seem to have had no problems with getting work permits in there. One of them is even a guy in his late 20s who's now working with kids under 7, which would have been an issue in other, more "liberal" countries, but I digress. I'm from Eastern Europe, if it matters. > Why not? Because if you make superior products to out internal, home-made ones, and then flood our market with those products then that means our domestic producers go out of business and we lose our jobs (while we happily buy your better products). We want to have the chance to share in your country's superior economic power (which, let's not forget, also depends on our cash, it depends in our buying your products) by working for your country's companies, if need be in your country. It's as simple as that, any other outcome is economic colonialism.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  >I have 3 people who now work in China, and they seem to have had no problems with getting work permits in there. I have myself worked in China thus I know the process (well, the process 16 years ago). Yes, it is easy for a professional who goes there to be a well-paid expat. Income differences are huge in China. But the forms really look like the Chinese are concerned about immigration of people who come there to exploit the welfare state (even if it is actually rather non-existent).
  - gambiting 10y ago
    >>Chinese are concerned about immigration of people who come there to exploit the welfare state (even if it is actually rather non-existent). That's literally the same concern everywhere. Polish people are concerned about immigrants coming there to claim their benefits, even though the immigration is literally non-existent, and Polish welfare pays something like $60/week if you are unemployed so it's not exactly something people would come here for. It's just people being fearful of issues that don't exist.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Some concerns are more justified than others. Looking at Calais jungle, the concern about continued and increasing immigration to UK is fearful of issues that actually do exist.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        Immigrants hiding in trucks in Calais to get to Dover are not going to care if the land on the other side of the channel is flying the EU flag or not. They are doing it illegally so they will continue doing it anyway.
- chappi42 10y ago
  You likely are highly qualified. This is different than e.g. the large number of people who came to germany last year where many (I suppose) don't have a good compatible education. Also you have a job, this is different than when you get a permit to e.g. enter China without being able to support yourself. - What do you mean with the remark about the guy working with kids? What issues?
  - paganel 10y ago
    > What do you mean with the remark about the guy working with kids? What issues? He's a teacher at a kinder-garden teaching English. My reply was a little far-fetched, I agree, but that job is usually not given to men in other parts of the world because reasons. The guy has no convictions or anything like that.
- tiatia 10y ago
  1. It is super hard to get a green card 2. It is impossible to get a passport 3. Chinese have a race based idea who can be Chinese. The idea is that sooner or later all foreigner may leave and should leave. If there is a huge economic downturn, China may even throw most of them out. Do you know what you get if you marry a Chinese? A tourist visa!
rmc 10y ago
Would the UK want the same trade deal that China has? The EU meant nearly unlimited free trade.
mcv 10y ago
> Why not? Because it's part of the same deal. You can't take one part of the deal and refuse the other part. The EU is really not going to make a special exception on this for the UK. In fact, I think the time of special exceptions for the UK is over. The UK will have to learn to accept fair deals.

paganel 10y ago

> while it is not that easy to immigrate into China. Care to mention why? In my quite limited circle of acquaintances I have 3 people who now work in China, and they seem to have had no problems with getting work permits in there. One of them is even a guy in his late 20s who's now working with kids under 7, which would have been an issue in other, more "liberal" countries, but I digress. I'm from Eastern Europe, if it matters. > Why not? Because if you make superior products to out internal, home-made ones, and then flood our market with those products then that means our domestic producers go out of business and we lose our jobs (while we happily buy your better products). We want to have the chance to share in your country's superior economic power (which, let's not forget, also depends on our cash, it depends in our buying your products) by working for your country's companies, if need be in your country. It's as simple as that, any other outcome is economic colonialism.

ptaipale 10y ago
>I have 3 people who now work in China, and they seem to have had no problems with getting work permits in there. I have myself worked in China thus I know the process (well, the process 16 years ago). Yes, it is easy for a professional who goes there to be a well-paid expat. Income differences are huge in China. But the forms really look like the Chinese are concerned about immigration of people who come there to exploit the welfare state (even if it is actually rather non-existent).
- gambiting 10y ago
  >>Chinese are concerned about immigration of people who come there to exploit the welfare state (even if it is actually rather non-existent). That's literally the same concern everywhere. Polish people are concerned about immigrants coming there to claim their benefits, even though the immigration is literally non-existent, and Polish welfare pays something like $60/week if you are unemployed so it's not exactly something people would come here for. It's just people being fearful of issues that don't exist.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Some concerns are more justified than others. Looking at Calais jungle, the concern about continued and increasing immigration to UK is fearful of issues that actually do exist.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Immigrants hiding in trucks in Calais to get to Dover are not going to care if the land on the other side of the channel is flying the EU flag or not. They are doing it illegally so they will continue doing it anyway.
chappi42 10y ago
You likely are highly qualified. This is different than e.g. the large number of people who came to germany last year where many (I suppose) don't have a good compatible education. Also you have a job, this is different than when you get a permit to e.g. enter China without being able to support yourself. - What do you mean with the remark about the guy working with kids? What issues?
- paganel 10y ago
  > What do you mean with the remark about the guy working with kids? What issues? He's a teacher at a kinder-garden teaching English. My reply was a little far-fetched, I agree, but that job is usually not given to men in other parts of the world because reasons. The guy has no convictions or anything like that.
tiatia 10y ago
1. It is super hard to get a green card 2. It is impossible to get a passport 3. Chinese have a race based idea who can be Chinese. The idea is that sooner or later all foreigner may leave and should leave. If there is a huge economic downturn, China may even throw most of them out. Do you know what you get if you marry a Chinese? A tourist visa!

rmc 10y ago

Would the UK want the same trade deal that China has? The EU meant nearly unlimited free trade.

mcv 10y ago

> Why not? Because it's part of the same deal. You can't take one part of the deal and refuse the other part. The EU is really not going to make a special exception on this for the UK. In fact, I think the time of special exceptions for the UK is over. The UK will have to learn to accept fair deals.