4 ms·

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germa

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germany (AfD), Britain (UKIP), Czech, Poland, etc. To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

kele 10y ago
And yet Switzerland is much less immigration friendly than all the countries you've mentioned.
- thirdsun 10y ago
  I didn't mean specific issues like immigration, but the general ability of the people to understand and comprehend complex issues and problems and vote accordingly - even if I disagree. Meanwhile it seems everywhere else whoever shouts the loudest, promises the most fantastic things or tells the most fear mongering tales gets ahead. Just my impression of course.
- faebi 10y ago
  And yet switzerland has one of the highest percentages of immigrants. Switzerland has a foreigners share of ~24%. Except Luxembourg every other EU nation has less immigrants than switzerland. As an example, Great Britain has only ~8%.
  - kele 10y ago
    The percentage of immigrants living in a country is a result of a long term process. I believe that what we are discussing right now is the 'refugee' crisis.
- herbst 10y ago
  Thats not true. It just does not mix emotions with politics so much and so the decisions made sometimes sound really harsh, when in reality they often aren't. Disclaimer: I am a EU foreigner in Switzerland.
  - kele 10y ago
    Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Switzerland is unfriendly. I'm saying that it's less friendly than the countries mentioned in the comment. That's because I believe they are too friendly. Last time I was in Zurich, this is the first thing I've seen at the railway station [1]. This is a very reasonable thing to do for Swiss people and something very different to what is happening in EU during the "refugee" crisis. On the other hand, in the EU it would be considered anti-immigrant or even racist (especially by media). [1] http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/lg/public/2016/02/28/512187838-people-walk-february-25-2016-zurich-gettyimages.jpg http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/lg/...
misja111 10y ago
This is because in Switzerland there have always been referendums. That really makes a difference on how people see their laws and regulations. In Switzerland, people say 'We have decided to have law X or regulation Y'. In Germany people say 'They have decided', meaning the government. This growing distance between the people and the government is a fertile breeding ground for populists. And the distance is the biggest between the people and the government of the EU.
- mk89 10y ago
  But this doesn't prevent ridiculous referendums, like the one about immigration. It shifts the responsibility to the people, true but who cares about who does what? We must care about the results - the society we live in. It's all about media. I will always blame the media for being extremely biased in whatever they do. I cannot mention today one objective and inquiring media. They ALL report what people already know or what they want to know. Democracy without objective media is oligarchy.
  - misja111 10y ago
    I'm not sure which 'ridiculous' referendum you mean. There have been two referendums in Switzerland during the recent years about evicting immigrants who have been convicted for heavy crimes. The first one was approved, the second more harsh one was rejected by the voters. But why call a referendum ridiculous? I guess it is primarily because you don't agree with the proposal that the referendum is about. And because you don't agree with the proposal, you feel that there should not even be a referendum about it? That means that you think your opinion is more valuable than a possible majority of the voters. Isn't that an egocentric point of view?
    - mk89 10y ago
      Exactly the one about expulsion of foreigner who are criminals. According to Wikipedia: "Foreigners who commit a crime would be automatically expelled from the country, regardless of the severity of the crime." [0] I don't know the laws in Switzerland, but I can tell you that in Germany if they catch you without the train ticket for three times, you can potentially go to jail. In Switzerland, if such a law existed (I don't know), such a person would be expelled. This is ridiculous to me, because in a life span anything can happen. If you commit rape, homicide, break-ins, I can understand. It's the "regardless" that makes me wonder how welcome foreigners are. Although "ridiculous" might be the wrong term, I think that such a referendum should not even exist. Why was it even thought about? Why the "regardless"? What's wrong with us humans? Foreigners come, make your country richer - especially foreigners, PHD, master students, and highly skilled employees - and that's how you pay them back? Treating them like if they were worse than animals? "If you fuck up, go away". I don't doubt the effectiveness of referendums, although I come from a country in which they hardly have an impact. I really appreciate Switzerland's method, as it keeps its citizens closer and more interested to politics. However, I am still of the idea that news can corrupt democracy pretty much everywhere, no matter how it's implemented - as long as citizens are the main responsible for the elected people or laws. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016
CM30 10y ago
It's not that surprising. Recent developments (like globalisation) have been really bad for the working class, and a growing level in inequality and rising housing prices and what not means that populist movements and their 'simple' answers to complex problems are becoming more attractive. And the media too. By attacking people for their views, they basically gave these populist movements ammunition and caused their supporters (and much of the public) to see a divide between an elite and the working man. Things will probably get far worse in the future because of all this...
- Mikushi 10y ago
  Worse for who? I don't necessarily agree with far right arguments, but as far as I'm concerned nothing indicates that rejecting globalisation will leave us in a worst future. Globalisation has destroyed the planet along with the capitalism and values it touts as the future. All lies and deceit that contributed to the ever enrichment of the elite while we're left here saying again and again that the working man is stupid for reacting to it. As said, I don't agree with the rhetoric of the far right, but one thing I have been entirely certain for many years, left or right, it doesn't matter, neither hold the future for us.
  - CM30 10y ago
    Not worse in the 'people are economically worse off' sense. Worse in the 'I worry that someday a psychotic lunatic will be voted in as prime minister/president/whatever' and lead to another massive war sense. I worry the politician voted in as a protest against elites and globalisation is going to be someone merely using that as a cover for a far worse ideology.
angry-hacker 10y ago
Why did you only list right wing populist movements? Plenty of extreme left wing movements share the burden for being in this mess we are right now here in EU.
- thirdsun 10y ago
  Fair enough. However those right wing movements often seem to be the ones that gain significant traction.
rospaya 10y ago
> To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy. Is it? At one point they blocked one type of a building from being built. Not to mention this clusterfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_February_2014#Consequences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_...

kele 10y ago

And yet Switzerland is much less immigration friendly than all the countries you've mentioned.

thirdsun 10y ago
I didn't mean specific issues like immigration, but the general ability of the people to understand and comprehend complex issues and problems and vote accordingly - even if I disagree. Meanwhile it seems everywhere else whoever shouts the loudest, promises the most fantastic things or tells the most fear mongering tales gets ahead. Just my impression of course.
faebi 10y ago
And yet switzerland has one of the highest percentages of immigrants. Switzerland has a foreigners share of ~24%. Except Luxembourg every other EU nation has less immigrants than switzerland. As an example, Great Britain has only ~8%.
- kele 10y ago
  The percentage of immigrants living in a country is a result of a long term process. I believe that what we are discussing right now is the 'refugee' crisis.
herbst 10y ago
Thats not true. It just does not mix emotions with politics so much and so the decisions made sometimes sound really harsh, when in reality they often aren't. Disclaimer: I am a EU foreigner in Switzerland.
- kele 10y ago
  Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Switzerland is unfriendly. I'm saying that it's less friendly than the countries mentioned in the comment. That's because I believe they are too friendly. Last time I was in Zurich, this is the first thing I've seen at the railway station [1]. This is a very reasonable thing to do for Swiss people and something very different to what is happening in EU during the "refugee" crisis. On the other hand, in the EU it would be considered anti-immigrant or even racist (especially by media). [1] http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/lg/public/2016/02/28/512187838-people-walk-february-25-2016-zurich-gettyimages.jpg http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/lg/...

misja111 10y ago

This is because in Switzerland there have always been referendums. That really makes a difference on how people see their laws and regulations. In Switzerland, people say 'We have decided to have law X or regulation Y'. In Germany people say 'They have decided', meaning the government. This growing distance between the people and the government is a fertile breeding ground for populists. And the distance is the biggest between the people and the government of the EU.

mk89 10y ago
But this doesn't prevent ridiculous referendums, like the one about immigration. It shifts the responsibility to the people, true but who cares about who does what? We must care about the results - the society we live in. It's all about media. I will always blame the media for being extremely biased in whatever they do. I cannot mention today one objective and inquiring media. They ALL report what people already know or what they want to know. Democracy without objective media is oligarchy.
- misja111 10y ago
  I'm not sure which 'ridiculous' referendum you mean. There have been two referendums in Switzerland during the recent years about evicting immigrants who have been convicted for heavy crimes. The first one was approved, the second more harsh one was rejected by the voters. But why call a referendum ridiculous? I guess it is primarily because you don't agree with the proposal that the referendum is about. And because you don't agree with the proposal, you feel that there should not even be a referendum about it? That means that you think your opinion is more valuable than a possible majority of the voters. Isn't that an egocentric point of view?
  - mk89 10y ago
    Exactly the one about expulsion of foreigner who are criminals. According to Wikipedia: "Foreigners who commit a crime would be automatically expelled from the country, regardless of the severity of the crime." [0] I don't know the laws in Switzerland, but I can tell you that in Germany if they catch you without the train ticket for three times, you can potentially go to jail. In Switzerland, if such a law existed (I don't know), such a person would be expelled. This is ridiculous to me, because in a life span anything can happen. If you commit rape, homicide, break-ins, I can understand. It's the "regardless" that makes me wonder how welcome foreigners are. Although "ridiculous" might be the wrong term, I think that such a referendum should not even exist. Why was it even thought about? Why the "regardless"? What's wrong with us humans? Foreigners come, make your country richer - especially foreigners, PHD, master students, and highly skilled employees - and that's how you pay them back? Treating them like if they were worse than animals? "If you fuck up, go away". I don't doubt the effectiveness of referendums, although I come from a country in which they hardly have an impact. I really appreciate Switzerland's method, as it keeps its citizens closer and more interested to politics. However, I am still of the idea that news can corrupt democracy pretty much everywhere, no matter how it's implemented - as long as citizens are the main responsible for the elected people or laws. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016

CM30 10y ago

It's not that surprising. Recent developments (like globalisation) have been really bad for the working class, and a growing level in inequality and rising housing prices and what not means that populist movements and their 'simple' answers to complex problems are becoming more attractive. And the media too. By attacking people for their views, they basically gave these populist movements ammunition and caused their supporters (and much of the public) to see a divide between an elite and the working man. Things will probably get far worse in the future because of all this...

Mikushi 10y ago
Worse for who? I don't necessarily agree with far right arguments, but as far as I'm concerned nothing indicates that rejecting globalisation will leave us in a worst future. Globalisation has destroyed the planet along with the capitalism and values it touts as the future. All lies and deceit that contributed to the ever enrichment of the elite while we're left here saying again and again that the working man is stupid for reacting to it. As said, I don't agree with the rhetoric of the far right, but one thing I have been entirely certain for many years, left or right, it doesn't matter, neither hold the future for us.
- CM30 10y ago
  Not worse in the 'people are economically worse off' sense. Worse in the 'I worry that someday a psychotic lunatic will be voted in as prime minister/president/whatever' and lead to another massive war sense. I worry the politician voted in as a protest against elites and globalisation is going to be someone merely using that as a cover for a far worse ideology.

angry-hacker 10y ago

Why did you only list right wing populist movements? Plenty of extreme left wing movements share the burden for being in this mess we are right now here in EU.

thirdsun 10y ago
Fair enough. However those right wing movements often seem to be the ones that gain significant traction.

rospaya 10y ago

> To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy. Is it? At one point they blocked one type of a building from being built. Not to mention this clusterfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_February_2014#Consequences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_...