4 ms·

E? Do you know what welfare does UK has? They are good with their socialism. It's not why they are leaving. And EU is much more than money, look at history of

by lossolo 10y ago

E? Do you know what welfare does UK has? They are good with their socialism. It's not why they are leaving. And EU is much more than money, look at history of EU and look in which part of the history there was no wars in EU.

ekianjo 10y ago
> which part of the history there was no wars in EU. In case you have a short memory, before the EU there was the League of Nations between WW1 and WW2, to ensure wars would never happen again in Europe (and elsewhere). It did not work out too well. The fact that we did not get any war in Europe after WW2 has really nothing to do with the EU being there or not. If anything, war did not break out because we were too busy preventing the Cold War from exploding in Europe and having Russia invade or coup every other country, like they did in the whole Eastern part of Europe.
- lossolo 10y ago
  They worked "preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration" which do not work look at UN and how many wars we still have. Democratic governments, rule of law and the most important: same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone - this is what prevented wars not some League of Nations with their dead agreements. Cold War ended what is keeping them busy from war now ?
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    > same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know. Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets. And the TPP, with the blessing of most EU members (in secret). There's no recipe to avoid war, but political stability is certainly correlated with economic prosperity. The EU is not making this happen, so we should see it slowly desintegrate.
    - lossolo 10y ago
      > Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know. Depend which values you are talking about but Greek signed European Convention on Human Rights, there is a LOT of values written there if you ask me which those countries you mention share. > Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets. It's not true for most products, but some indeed are regulated because if you have 28 different countries you need to control some of the segments of markets or your country/other countries will suffer, that's why you have for example limits for milk producing etc. Show my any organization exactly like EU which doesn't regulate their common market. > There's no recipe to avoid war For sure there is no 100% certain recipe to avoid war but nothing was created closer to that recipe than EU. I live in country that was transformed from communism to democracy in 1989, trust me it can be a lot worse than it's now in EU, you can't imagine.
    - anonymousDan 10y ago
      Such utter nonsense. How on earth is the EU a tariff heavy zone? And to say with such confidence the EU had no part to play in preventing further wars is ridiculous.
kodfodrasz 10y ago
Correlation is not causation. The fact no wars between EU members happened (yet) during the existence of the EU is note necessarily caused by the existence or the very nature of the EU. Also given the recent proceedings in the course of the EU all member countries are better off with the whole house of cards collapsing. We can always build a new alliance, but this USSR style direction is not the least promising. Take a look at the Greek, what a success the EU was for them. Take a look at the handling of the Greek dept problem, how well the EU reagated to that. Take a look at the migrant crisis: the western EU members criticized Hungary for defending its borders, which it is obliged to by the schengen treaty. The leaders did not play by the rules they have set, yet they talk about more centralization should do the trick. The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable. Also does not show ability to control this imbecile of a superpower. This EU must die for its architectural problems. Just as the USSR had to die. I beleive this will also happen without violence, as there is no common military force under the control of the "leaders". I also beleive, that the European people, even those voting leave, have a wish to be united. But maybe some beleive we are first British, and second European, and they do not wish to sacrafice their local values for some abstract European or global values. Yet they do not feel bad about the other Europeans. Europe has longer, and different history than the USA, and most importantly, though often forgotten, most European nations have made huge saccrifices for their freedom, for their very existence as a nation. In short, to save the EU: "everything must change so that everything can stay the same"
- lossolo 10y ago
  Look at Greek? You know why greeks were in situation in which they ended? Because this was their own fault, they had 18 gardeners employed in one of their local government building on payroll but only one was needed. They paid all government employees bonus for coming to work on time, bonus for washing hands, bonus for being all day in work. Then they made "creative books" which made this disaster from the eyes of others. > The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable. European Council is not elected by people? Please read more about EU before claiming such things which are not true - "The European Council is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission."

by lossolo 10y ago

ekianjo 10y ago

> which part of the history there was no wars in EU. In case you have a short memory, before the EU there was the League of Nations between WW1 and WW2, to ensure wars would never happen again in Europe (and elsewhere). It did not work out too well. The fact that we did not get any war in Europe after WW2 has really nothing to do with the EU being there or not. If anything, war did not break out because we were too busy preventing the Cold War from exploding in Europe and having Russia invade or coup every other country, like they did in the whole Eastern part of Europe.

lossolo 10y ago
They worked "preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration" which do not work look at UN and how many wars we still have. Democratic governments, rule of law and the most important: same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone - this is what prevented wars not some League of Nations with their dead agreements. Cold War ended what is keeping them busy from war now ?
- ekianjo 10y ago
  > same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know. Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets. And the TPP, with the blessing of most EU members (in secret). There's no recipe to avoid war, but political stability is certainly correlated with economic prosperity. The EU is not making this happen, so we should see it slowly desintegrate.
  - lossolo 10y ago
    > Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know. Depend which values you are talking about but Greek signed European Convention on Human Rights, there is a LOT of values written there if you ask me which those countries you mention share. > Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets. It's not true for most products, but some indeed are regulated because if you have 28 different countries you need to control some of the segments of markets or your country/other countries will suffer, that's why you have for example limits for milk producing etc. Show my any organization exactly like EU which doesn't regulate their common market. > There's no recipe to avoid war For sure there is no 100% certain recipe to avoid war but nothing was created closer to that recipe than EU. I live in country that was transformed from communism to democracy in 1989, trust me it can be a lot worse than it's now in EU, you can't imagine.
  - anonymousDan 10y ago
    Such utter nonsense. How on earth is the EU a tariff heavy zone? And to say with such confidence the EU had no part to play in preventing further wars is ridiculous.

kodfodrasz 10y ago

Correlation is not causation. The fact no wars between EU members happened (yet) during the existence of the EU is note necessarily caused by the existence or the very nature of the EU. Also given the recent proceedings in the course of the EU all member countries are better off with the whole house of cards collapsing. We can always build a new alliance, but this USSR style direction is not the least promising. Take a look at the Greek, what a success the EU was for them. Take a look at the handling of the Greek dept problem, how well the EU reagated to that. Take a look at the migrant crisis: the western EU members criticized Hungary for defending its borders, which it is obliged to by the schengen treaty. The leaders did not play by the rules they have set, yet they talk about more centralization should do the trick. The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable. Also does not show ability to control this imbecile of a superpower. This EU must die for its architectural problems. Just as the USSR had to die. I beleive this will also happen without violence, as there is no common military force under the control of the "leaders". I also beleive, that the European people, even those voting leave, have a wish to be united. But maybe some beleive we are first British, and second European, and they do not wish to sacrafice their local values for some abstract European or global values. Yet they do not feel bad about the other Europeans. Europe has longer, and different history than the USA, and most importantly, though often forgotten, most European nations have made huge saccrifices for their freedom, for their very existence as a nation. In short, to save the EU: "everything must change so that everything can stay the same"

lossolo 10y ago
Look at Greek? You know why greeks were in situation in which they ended? Because this was their own fault, they had 18 gardeners employed in one of their local government building on payroll but only one was needed. They paid all government employees bonus for coming to work on time, bonus for washing hands, bonus for being all day in work. Then they made "creative books" which made this disaster from the eyes of others. > The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable. European Council is not elected by people? Please read more about EU before claiming such things which are not true - "The European Council is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission."