4 ms·

I don't really understand the reasoning either for or against this. The default seems to be non eu-membership. So why should Britain stay in the EU? People a

by blhack 10y ago

I don't really understand the reasoning either for or against this. The default seems to be non eu-membership. So why should Britain stay in the EU? People are commenting on this as though it's really obvious.

eli 10y ago
The "default" would surely be to remain being an EU member, i.e. to do nothing. Voting to leave is a significant change from the status quo.
selectron 10y ago
I agree with this. There has to be some balance - it is not like EU membership lifts the economies that enter it, so it doesn't seem like it should be so bad to leave the EU. I also expect people to overstate the effects - like currency devaluing is both good and bad for the UK while people are acting like it is some kind of disaster. Stock markets also seem to largely be decoupled from the real economies these days.
- Tomte 10y ago
  Poland and most other Eastern European Economies got a huge boost by access to the Common Market.
  - rodgerd 10y ago
    Much of the UK gets a huge boost from the EU. Places like the north and midlands get massive amounts of money pumped in from renewal and development funds.
  - dguaraglia 10y ago
    Tell that to Greece, Portugal and Spain. Truth is, the EU is not a perfect solution. Even if Europe were to become a "single nation" (like the United States) that wouldn't mean all parts of the Union would have the same economic development. Just look at the stark differences between places like New York, Massachusetts or California vs. Missouri and Luisiana. Prima facie it's impossible to predict if the UK will be as severely affected as the Remain camp wants to paint it. Time will tell. If anything, I'm curious about all this (if painfully aware that it might affect the life of millions of people for the worst.)
  - bobthechef 10y ago
    "Oh, really? Take a look at Polish GDP growth before Poland entered the EU. You make it sound like it's so simple. The simple fact is that the greatest beneficiary of the EU is Germany because Germany is an export driven market. It needs the free trade zone to sell its products and to access cheap labor in the East on favorable terms. The idea that Germany is the generous benefactor of these countries is absurd. The German economy profits enormously from it. Furthermore, free trade benefits countries who are already rich far more than they benefit those that aren't. The US became an economic power not because of free trade but because of protectionism that shielded its economy from an influx of cheap products from wealthier countries and allowing it to develop (the US is to this day one of the most protectionist countries in the world). The economic power of a country isn't measured by the access consumers have to products. It's measured by its economic base. If Poles have access to every product in the EU at British, French, and German supermarkets while remaining a giant service center for Germany, then it is not a country with a strong economy. It is an annex. It also transfers jobs out of the country which is why resentment against the EU is seen across Europe. The EU, in its current crypto-imperialist form, is dead.
addicted 10y ago
Because Britain had access to all the good things about the EU (common market, EU agencies located in the UK, free movement) without some of the worst (common currency). 44% of British exports are to the EU. A significant reason for Foreign investment in the UK is because companies have seen it as a convenient way to sell in Europe (helps that it's the only English speaking nation in the common market). And they voluntarily gave all that away. And they've simultaneously made a lot of enemies amongst their largest trading partner and closest neighbors. I simply don't see how this works well for the UK (or should we say England, since the possibilities of Scotland breaking away have also risen dramatically).
- Zpalmtree 10y ago
  Free movement is awful for the working class and great for the elites, which is the main reason for brexit happening. We want control over our borders and control over our laws.
  - fuj 10y ago
    I don't see the working class upset about the open borders when they go for holidays in spain or portugal, or do you think only the elites go there?
  - domfletcher 10y ago
    Tell that to all the working class EU migrants we have staffing our farms, building sites etc.
    - Zpalmtree 10y ago
      I'm talking about the British citizens, no doubt free movement is great for the EU migrants because Britain is such a great country, but the mass influx of low skilled labour brings down wages and quality of life.
      - ck425 10y ago
        It's really a minor factor compared to lack of investment due to austerity. This is the frustrating aspect of it, that the working class brexitors have been blaming immigration for many issues and the remain campaign have failed to make it clear that austerity is a far bigger contributor.

by blhack 10y ago

eli 10y ago

The "default" would surely be to remain being an EU member, i.e. to do nothing. Voting to leave is a significant change from the status quo.

selectron 10y ago

I agree with this. There has to be some balance - it is not like EU membership lifts the economies that enter it, so it doesn't seem like it should be so bad to leave the EU. I also expect people to overstate the effects - like currency devaluing is both good and bad for the UK while people are acting like it is some kind of disaster. Stock markets also seem to largely be decoupled from the real economies these days.

Tomte 10y ago
Poland and most other Eastern European Economies got a huge boost by access to the Common Market.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  Much of the UK gets a huge boost from the EU. Places like the north and midlands get massive amounts of money pumped in from renewal and development funds.
- dguaraglia 10y ago
  Tell that to Greece, Portugal and Spain. Truth is, the EU is not a perfect solution. Even if Europe were to become a "single nation" (like the United States) that wouldn't mean all parts of the Union would have the same economic development. Just look at the stark differences between places like New York, Massachusetts or California vs. Missouri and Luisiana. Prima facie it's impossible to predict if the UK will be as severely affected as the Remain camp wants to paint it. Time will tell. If anything, I'm curious about all this (if painfully aware that it might affect the life of millions of people for the worst.)
- bobthechef 10y ago
  "Oh, really? Take a look at Polish GDP growth before Poland entered the EU. You make it sound like it's so simple. The simple fact is that the greatest beneficiary of the EU is Germany because Germany is an export driven market. It needs the free trade zone to sell its products and to access cheap labor in the East on favorable terms. The idea that Germany is the generous benefactor of these countries is absurd. The German economy profits enormously from it. Furthermore, free trade benefits countries who are already rich far more than they benefit those that aren't. The US became an economic power not because of free trade but because of protectionism that shielded its economy from an influx of cheap products from wealthier countries and allowing it to develop (the US is to this day one of the most protectionist countries in the world). The economic power of a country isn't measured by the access consumers have to products. It's measured by its economic base. If Poles have access to every product in the EU at British, French, and German supermarkets while remaining a giant service center for Germany, then it is not a country with a strong economy. It is an annex. It also transfers jobs out of the country which is why resentment against the EU is seen across Europe. The EU, in its current crypto-imperialist form, is dead.

addicted 10y ago

Because Britain had access to all the good things about the EU (common market, EU agencies located in the UK, free movement) without some of the worst (common currency). 44% of British exports are to the EU. A significant reason for Foreign investment in the UK is because companies have seen it as a convenient way to sell in Europe (helps that it's the only English speaking nation in the common market). And they voluntarily gave all that away. And they've simultaneously made a lot of enemies amongst their largest trading partner and closest neighbors. I simply don't see how this works well for the UK (or should we say England, since the possibilities of Scotland breaking away have also risen dramatically).

Zpalmtree 10y ago
Free movement is awful for the working class and great for the elites, which is the main reason for brexit happening. We want control over our borders and control over our laws.
- fuj 10y ago
  I don't see the working class upset about the open borders when they go for holidays in spain or portugal, or do you think only the elites go there?
- domfletcher 10y ago
  Tell that to all the working class EU migrants we have staffing our farms, building sites etc.
  - Zpalmtree 10y ago
    I'm talking about the British citizens, no doubt free movement is great for the EU migrants because Britain is such a great country, but the mass influx of low skilled labour brings down wages and quality of life.
    - ck425 10y ago
      It's really a minor factor compared to lack of investment due to austerity. This is the frustrating aspect of it, that the working class brexitors have been blaming immigration for many issues and the remain campaign have failed to make it clear that austerity is a far bigger contributor.