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I think this is probably key. People across the world are pissed at the political class – and I completely understand why. In the UK, there's an intense feelin

I think this is probably key. People across the world are pissed at the political class – and I completely understand why. In the UK, there's an intense feeling that the concerns of people in traditionally working-class communities have been ignored in preference of a metropolitan elite. There is increasing wealth inequality, cuts to public services, less job security and so on. Members of these communities are very aware of the costs of EU membership – free movement of labour being particularly damaging to these communities – and are not as convinced by the corresponding benefits. I do place the fault squarely at the feet of the modern left-of-center political movements (Labour Party in the UK) which has consistently peddled a muddled message of internationalism mixed with social democracy mixed with unrestrained capitalism – in appealing to an imagined middle-ground voter they have alienated their traditional support. It feels like these movements have compressively failed to provide a convincing messages – instead peddling a weak compromise that pleases nobody. It's frustrating, but I'm struggling to understand what the answer looks like.

rodgerd 10y ago
> I think this is probably key. People across the world are pissed at the political class – and I completely understand why. Yes, but in the UK context they're voting for Farange, Johnson, et al. Who are as solidly establishment as they come.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Only by supposed proxy. Directly, they are voting to leave the EU.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Not at all. Nearly every Leave supporter I've talked with over recent months finds Farage and Boris just as foolish as any of the rest of them. If you live in the NW or NE it's probably down to disenfranchisement. Large parts of the NW and NE are still not out of the 2008 recession, so hearing the constant bleating about the economy, they're told is doing so well, just reinforces the emptiness of the political classes. On Europe specifically most of the remain arguments were economic. It's quite hard to listen to those seriously whilst London is in its usual bubble and the area in which you live is still suffering. Nearly every EU economic argument is reinforcing the EU being about big business, just proving, in their minds, the disconnect with the people. People who are living in areas that have seen enormous decline in the last 30 years. Makes it harder to vote for free movement and markets when you can see the decimation of your once vibrant industry and town centres. So nearly every argument for Remain is demonstrably untrue in their own life and region. So, no, they're not voting for Farage, they're voting against the Westminster groupthink bubble. If they had got more regional development, or the regional economies were given better support, things could have been very different.
  - Bombthecat 10y ago
    Jeah, but with the EU Nike for example would have built there robot fabric in the UK. Now it will be somewhere in EU. The UK just lost the biggest future lights out fabrics. What does the UK plan to do?
    - anexprogrammer 10y ago
      FWIW I was remain. I have no idea how this will play out. Twenty or thirty years ago I would have had definite ideas of how a UK exit would have played (quite well), now I just don't know. I would hope that efforts can be made to make the UK economy more inclusive. The areas voting overwhelmingly to leave are all the areas that have been suffering since the 80s - NE, NW, Wales. How the UK operates and competes globally now, I simply have no idea. I'm also concerned we're going to lose a lot of the protections we had in the EU.
hackuser 10y ago
> There is increasing wealth inequality, cuts to public services, less job security and so on These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. > free movement of labour being particularly damaging to these communities How? The UK has had internal free movement of labor for a long time, and it didn't damage them. Blaming the immigrants sounds suspiciously like populist propaganda. It doesn't make it false, but can you back it up? EDIT: From today's NY Times: there was no question that while the immigrants contributed more to the economy and to tax receipts than they cost http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/world/europe/britain-brexit-european-union-referendum.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/world/europe/britain-brexi...
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. That's not really the case. Wealth inequality increased massively under the previous 13 years of Labour government in the UK, for example. They're more 'new liberal' policies than Tory or Labour policies. How? The UK has had internal free movement of labor for a long time, and it didn't damage them. Blaming the immigrants sounds suspiciously like populist propaganda. It doesn't make it false, but can you back it up? I guess I wasn't that clear – I don't actually agree with them in the aggregate, and I'm solidly pro-EU and pro-free-movement. 'Blaming the immigrants' as you say is solidly nationalist propaganda. But there is a perception in these communities – false though it may be – that 'immigrants from the EU' come to the UK and 'take jobs,' 'put pressure on public services' and so on. Many people in these communities haven't been well-treated by successive governments, particularly around immigrations. That's why they're annoyed, not because immigration is bad for the country (it isn't.)
  - hackuser 10y ago
    >> These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. > That's not really the case. ... Austerity is a Tory policy ... I don't know about the rest, but Labor hasn't been in power for awhile. > there is a perception in these communities – false though it may be – that 'immigrants from the EU' come to the UK and 'take jobs That's the propaganda. Social services are reduced by Tory austerity, and then they blame the immigrants. Similar things happen in other places in Europe, especially blaming immigrants.

rodgerd 10y ago

> I think this is probably key. People across the world are pissed at the political class – and I completely understand why. Yes, but in the UK context they're voting for Farange, Johnson, et al. Who are as solidly establishment as they come.

oh_sigh 10y ago
Only by supposed proxy. Directly, they are voting to leave the EU.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Not at all. Nearly every Leave supporter I've talked with over recent months finds Farage and Boris just as foolish as any of the rest of them. If you live in the NW or NE it's probably down to disenfranchisement. Large parts of the NW and NE are still not out of the 2008 recession, so hearing the constant bleating about the economy, they're told is doing so well, just reinforces the emptiness of the political classes. On Europe specifically most of the remain arguments were economic. It's quite hard to listen to those seriously whilst London is in its usual bubble and the area in which you live is still suffering. Nearly every EU economic argument is reinforcing the EU being about big business, just proving, in their minds, the disconnect with the people. People who are living in areas that have seen enormous decline in the last 30 years. Makes it harder to vote for free movement and markets when you can see the decimation of your once vibrant industry and town centres. So nearly every argument for Remain is demonstrably untrue in their own life and region. So, no, they're not voting for Farage, they're voting against the Westminster groupthink bubble. If they had got more regional development, or the regional economies were given better support, things could have been very different.
- Bombthecat 10y ago
  Jeah, but with the EU Nike for example would have built there robot fabric in the UK. Now it will be somewhere in EU. The UK just lost the biggest future lights out fabrics. What does the UK plan to do?
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    FWIW I was remain. I have no idea how this will play out. Twenty or thirty years ago I would have had definite ideas of how a UK exit would have played (quite well), now I just don't know. I would hope that efforts can be made to make the UK economy more inclusive. The areas voting overwhelmingly to leave are all the areas that have been suffering since the 80s - NE, NW, Wales. How the UK operates and competes globally now, I simply have no idea. I'm also concerned we're going to lose a lot of the protections we had in the EU.

hackuser 10y ago

> There is increasing wealth inequality, cuts to public services, less job security and so on These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. > free movement of labour being particularly damaging to these communities How? The UK has had internal free movement of labor for a long time, and it didn't damage them. Blaming the immigrants sounds suspiciously like populist propaganda. It doesn't make it false, but can you back it up? EDIT: From today's NY Times: there was no question that while the immigrants contributed more to the economy and to tax receipts than they cost http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/world/europe/britain-brexit-european-union-referendum.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/world/europe/britain-brexi...

matthewmacleod 10y ago
These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. That's not really the case. Wealth inequality increased massively under the previous 13 years of Labour government in the UK, for example. They're more 'new liberal' policies than Tory or Labour policies. How? The UK has had internal free movement of labor for a long time, and it didn't damage them. Blaming the immigrants sounds suspiciously like populist propaganda. It doesn't make it false, but can you back it up? I guess I wasn't that clear – I don't actually agree with them in the aggregate, and I'm solidly pro-EU and pro-free-movement. 'Blaming the immigrants' as you say is solidly nationalist propaganda. But there is a perception in these communities – false though it may be – that 'immigrants from the EU' come to the UK and 'take jobs,' 'put pressure on public services' and so on. Many people in these communities haven't been well-treated by successive governments, particularly around immigrations. That's why they're annoyed, not because immigration is bad for the country (it isn't.)
- hackuser 10y ago
  >> These are Tory policies; Labor opposes them. > That's not really the case. ... Austerity is a Tory policy ... I don't know about the rest, but Labor hasn't been in power for awhile. > there is a perception in these communities – false though it may be – that 'immigrants from the EU' come to the UK and 'take jobs That's the propaganda. Social services are reduced by Tory austerity, and then they blame the immigrants. Similar things happen in other places in Europe, especially blaming immigrants.