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Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chi

by bpchaps 10y ago

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill. My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering importance of a college education with money rather than success as the reason to go. Just about every student I've talked to who actually went through it is absolutely miserable - especially those who went to a university rather than the local community college. The only people who didn't have this issue were the honor's students, who either received scholarships or had money already. I seriously question the judgement, noise and in some ways, misery caused by those presentations. Every time career comes up with my family and old classmates, I'm still looked down on for not having a degree... Even though I'm objectively more successful than the people telling me to go to college.. The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of survivor-bias.

IkmoIkmo 10y ago
Well as much as I appreciate your earlier points, I do want to comment: > The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of survivor-bias. That it's you who's showing survivor-bias. The data as far as I'm aware of it, does indeed confirm, that a college degree is a net financial benefit, despite of course obvious substantial anecdotal evidence to the contrary that every person is familiar with (my friend xyz got a degree and he's doing shitty). I'm purely talking historically, and financially. Even today I'm seeing a job market where you can't get a traineeship in most companies without a master's degree, as silly as that may be. Also I want to stress that tech is very, very much an exception. A field where more than most, you can get access to jobs on the basis of your work, not your work in school. I feel HN underappreciates the difference with the rest of the population. In terms of happiness, fulfilment etc, I can't speak on that. Also, I can't speak on how this'll develop in next generations, e.g. for those going to college today or later this decade, but I suspect like most that there'll be a big paradigm shift making college way less appealing. At the end of the day, the benefits of college can be seen as an arbitrage opportunity in the market. i.e., spend X money for education, get Y (which is > X) benefits in income in return. And like any arbitrage opportunity, X will increase in cost and Y will decrease, as more people are drawn to the opportunity, until it largely fades. (or worse, temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently).
- bpchaps 10y ago
  I agree that I'm an example of a particular survivorship, but that's not really my point. I'm kind of trying to get out of the usual tech force right now with a focus on investigative journalism. Going that route is an acknowledgement of my survivorship bias while attempting to play my part in making things mildly better. I would love to see these conversations move towards discussion on happiness, fulfillment, etc of college. The lack of discussion is 95% of my frustration in these subjects and almost always leads towards the economic value of college, while ignoring the individual. College is ultimately supposed to help get access to a happier life through comfort, stability, etc, but my generation overall is very unlikely to get that with the state of their loans. It's really sad.
- throwawaysocks 10y ago
  > temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently). Or software engineers in the near future, given the hockey-stick growth in enrollments... which brings up another important benefit of a high-quality tertiary education: when done right, it reduces the barrier to entry for a variety of professions in a variety of industries. If the bubble exists and bursts tomorrow, people who went to university and obtained an education in both CS and in something else will have an alternative to temporary unemployment. Those who went directly into industry jobs out of high school are less likely to have a broad set of skills and knowledge to fall back on. The benefit is not only to the individual -- countries with adaptable work forces have adaptable economies; countries with work forces that are trained exclusively for this decade's cog factories (the engine plants of mom's world are the app dev shops of today) will lag behind when global demand for cogs dies off and widgets become the new lexus of growth and prosperity.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by bpchaps 10y ago

IkmoIkmo 10y ago

Well as much as I appreciate your earlier points, I do want to comment: > The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of survivor-bias. That it's you who's showing survivor-bias. The data as far as I'm aware of it, does indeed confirm, that a college degree is a net financial benefit, despite of course obvious substantial anecdotal evidence to the contrary that every person is familiar with (my friend xyz got a degree and he's doing shitty). I'm purely talking historically, and financially. Even today I'm seeing a job market where you can't get a traineeship in most companies without a master's degree, as silly as that may be. Also I want to stress that tech is very, very much an exception. A field where more than most, you can get access to jobs on the basis of your work, not your work in school. I feel HN underappreciates the difference with the rest of the population. In terms of happiness, fulfilment etc, I can't speak on that. Also, I can't speak on how this'll develop in next generations, e.g. for those going to college today or later this decade, but I suspect like most that there'll be a big paradigm shift making college way less appealing. At the end of the day, the benefits of college can be seen as an arbitrage opportunity in the market. i.e., spend X money for education, get Y (which is > X) benefits in income in return. And like any arbitrage opportunity, X will increase in cost and Y will decrease, as more people are drawn to the opportunity, until it largely fades. (or worse, temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently).

bpchaps 10y ago
I agree that I'm an example of a particular survivorship, but that's not really my point. I'm kind of trying to get out of the usual tech force right now with a focus on investigative journalism. Going that route is an acknowledgement of my survivorship bias while attempting to play my part in making things mildly better. I would love to see these conversations move towards discussion on happiness, fulfillment, etc of college. The lack of discussion is 95% of my frustration in these subjects and almost always leads towards the economic value of college, while ignoring the individual. College is ultimately supposed to help get access to a happier life through comfort, stability, etc, but my generation overall is very unlikely to get that with the state of their loans. It's really sad.
throwawaysocks 10y ago
> temporarily flips around due to oversupply, like we've seen in some industries, e.g. MBAs at various times, or lawyers recently). Or software engineers in the near future, given the hockey-stick growth in enrollments... which brings up another important benefit of a high-quality tertiary education: when done right, it reduces the barrier to entry for a variety of professions in a variety of industries. If the bubble exists and bursts tomorrow, people who went to university and obtained an education in both CS and in something else will have an alternative to temporary unemployment. Those who went directly into industry jobs out of high school are less likely to have a broad set of skills and knowledge to fall back on. The benefit is not only to the individual -- countries with adaptable work forces have adaptable economies; countries with work forces that are trained exclusively for this decade's cog factories (the engine plants of mom's world are the app dev shops of today) will lag behind when global demand for cogs dies off and widgets become the new lexus of growth and prosperity.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]