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In case of Brexit I might move my company outside the country (I'm an EU national, not British) and me and my family probably follow suit shortly after. It depe

In case of Brexit I might move my company outside the country (I'm an EU national, not British) and me and my family probably follow suit shortly after. It depends on whether there's visa drama (if there is, then I'll eff off) or the UK remains as part of the free movement of people agreements (like Switzerland or Norway). It is a shame that fear, lies and racism (which is, again, fear) make people consider leaving the EU, which is the single good thing that happened to Europe since the end of WW2. It is not just about what's the EU (several discussions including some in HN have shown once and again how the EU is completely democratic), but about what the EU could be. I do respect their sovereignty to choose kicking out EU citizens and requiring them to go through the visa crap, but I can't help but feeling unwanted. All the reasons to leave the EU seem naïve, as almost none of them will change (immigration, adherence to EU regulations, trade agreements, free movement of people) or, even worse, will be forced fed into Britain's mouth without the chance to vote against them. If I finally have to leave, I wish them all the best as I consider them my friends, but I sincerely prefer to spend my time with friends that appreciate me as much as I appreciate them.

UK-AL 10y ago
Most people on leave campaign have said most EU nationals already here are not going to be kicked out? I think immigration levels won't be effected.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  In all fairness, they'll probably just let everyone in as they've been doing until now, mainly because of two facts: 1) UK has never been part of Schengen, hence it has border controls (regain control of our borders!). That won't change outside the EU. 2) As shown with English hooligans in France, you can kick out any EU citizen that's a problem or burden for your country. That won't change outside the EU. So, leaving the EU won't give superpowers to UK's border control that didn't have before. Hence why I'm pretty sure the UK will very quickly sign the same treaties Switzerland and Norway have, thus pretty much leaving untouched the immigration topic. After the referendum, UKIP will have no meaning as their goals would be fulfilled hence the Tories would have no reason to lie to you anymore about immigration control, they'll just leave the doors open. The only that would change and has actually changed already is all the xenophobia created towards EU nationals and that, my friends, is a two-way street. Hatred only brings hatred. I'm reading too many EU nationals saying things along the lines of "I hope they leave and sink", which is not fair to British people IMHO. You've normalised racism and brought it into national debates and even have public figures with racist campaigns (e.g. Farage's famous latest stunt). How the public has found this acceptable is beyond my comprehension. Anyway, it is a shame what this welcoming country has become in the last few years. I hope that, whatever the result, we can keep working together on building a great UK and a great Europe.
icu 10y ago
I'm sympathetic because I think both sided have gone to extremes and quite frankly lied at times to gain votes which is why I did my own research and came to my own conclusions after dwelling on it for a long time. I think if the UK does leave it would be absolutely stupid to push out people who have made the UK their home and contributed thus far. Most likely it would be business as usual until the UK negotiates it's way out of the EU. I sincerely hope that if a leave vote happens that your family and business life doesn't get disrupted and please don't think that all the people who voted to leave did so for xenophobic racist reasons.
- glenndebacker 10y ago
  "please don't think that all the people who voted to leave did so for xenophobic racist reasons." But the whole premise of leaving is universally build on xenophobic racist reasons or started with xenophobic arguments. The line between Euroscepticism and Anti-Europeanism is very thin, there is a market for "Breaking point" ads. The fact that 9/10 of most anti-European parties (even on the mainland or those a Nigel Farage is dweeping with) is xenophobic/racist from nature is extremely telling.
  - dawson 10y ago
    No, it's really not.
    - Myrmornis 10y ago
      Leave won due to the votes from non university-educated people in towns & villages and white working class, and both groups are more xenophobic than the university-educated generation under 40, who are furious. People were not voting about economics or trade agreements or the ideals of multi-national unions. It's not pretty to have this divide along socio-economic lines, and it's not pretty for liberals to realize that they wish that the xenophobic white working class didn't have such an influence in a vote, but that's how it is.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  If you* make me go through a visa application that's the same as kicking me out, because I don't want to go through a visa application to keep living in my own home (been here for many years), hence you'll kick me out. *As you would have regained sovereignty (sic), I guess you can't blame The Government or the politicians. It's something you have decided, hence you take the blame for any bad consequence (and praise for the good ones).
harel 10y ago
This is one of the main reasons I voted to remain in the end. I was undecided for a while (and immigration was not even an issue for me) - Heart says IN, Brain says Out. In the end, both brain and heart agreed on IN, with a prime reason being that I have a lot of friends who are European living in the UK, I've hired many EU national to work in London, and I myself am both British and European (French). I don't want that unwelcoming message sent out to them, on my conscious. Europe is not right, its even broken in some ways, but leaving it is not the way. We hack things together, build complex systems that serve millions and basically solve impossible problems every day. We can fix this too, but only if we stay.

UK-AL 10y ago

Most people on leave campaign have said most EU nationals already here are not going to be kicked out? I think immigration levels won't be effected.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
In all fairness, they'll probably just let everyone in as they've been doing until now, mainly because of two facts: 1) UK has never been part of Schengen, hence it has border controls (regain control of our borders!). That won't change outside the EU. 2) As shown with English hooligans in France, you can kick out any EU citizen that's a problem or burden for your country. That won't change outside the EU. So, leaving the EU won't give superpowers to UK's border control that didn't have before. Hence why I'm pretty sure the UK will very quickly sign the same treaties Switzerland and Norway have, thus pretty much leaving untouched the immigration topic. After the referendum, UKIP will have no meaning as their goals would be fulfilled hence the Tories would have no reason to lie to you anymore about immigration control, they'll just leave the doors open. The only that would change and has actually changed already is all the xenophobia created towards EU nationals and that, my friends, is a two-way street. Hatred only brings hatred. I'm reading too many EU nationals saying things along the lines of "I hope they leave and sink", which is not fair to British people IMHO. You've normalised racism and brought it into national debates and even have public figures with racist campaigns (e.g. Farage's famous latest stunt). How the public has found this acceptable is beyond my comprehension. Anyway, it is a shame what this welcoming country has become in the last few years. I hope that, whatever the result, we can keep working together on building a great UK and a great Europe.

icu 10y ago

I'm sympathetic because I think both sided have gone to extremes and quite frankly lied at times to gain votes which is why I did my own research and came to my own conclusions after dwelling on it for a long time. I think if the UK does leave it would be absolutely stupid to push out people who have made the UK their home and contributed thus far. Most likely it would be business as usual until the UK negotiates it's way out of the EU. I sincerely hope that if a leave vote happens that your family and business life doesn't get disrupted and please don't think that all the people who voted to leave did so for xenophobic racist reasons.

glenndebacker 10y ago
"please don't think that all the people who voted to leave did so for xenophobic racist reasons." But the whole premise of leaving is universally build on xenophobic racist reasons or started with xenophobic arguments. The line between Euroscepticism and Anti-Europeanism is very thin, there is a market for "Breaking point" ads. The fact that 9/10 of most anti-European parties (even on the mainland or those a Nigel Farage is dweeping with) is xenophobic/racist from nature is extremely telling.
- dawson 10y ago
  No, it's really not.
  - Myrmornis 10y ago
    Leave won due to the votes from non university-educated people in towns & villages and white working class, and both groups are more xenophobic than the university-educated generation under 40, who are furious. People were not voting about economics or trade agreements or the ideals of multi-national unions. It's not pretty to have this divide along socio-economic lines, and it's not pretty for liberals to realize that they wish that the xenophobic white working class didn't have such an influence in a vote, but that's how it is.
NetStrikeForce 10y ago
If you* make me go through a visa application that's the same as kicking me out, because I don't want to go through a visa application to keep living in my own home (been here for many years), hence you'll kick me out. *As you would have regained sovereignty (sic), I guess you can't blame The Government or the politicians. It's something you have decided, hence you take the blame for any bad consequence (and praise for the good ones).

harel 10y ago

This is one of the main reasons I voted to remain in the end. I was undecided for a while (and immigration was not even an issue for me) - Heart says IN, Brain says Out. In the end, both brain and heart agreed on IN, with a prime reason being that I have a lot of friends who are European living in the UK, I've hired many EU national to work in London, and I myself am both British and European (French). I don't want that unwelcoming message sent out to them, on my conscious. Europe is not right, its even broken in some ways, but leaving it is not the way. We hack things together, build complex systems that serve millions and basically solve impossible problems every day. We can fix this too, but only if we stay.