4 ms·

This and Unreal were the last great software rendered 3d game engines before GPUs became mainstream. EDIT: I should have mentioned the BUILD engine too, writte

by cm3 10y ago

This and Unreal were the last great software rendered 3d game engines before GPUs became mainstream. EDIT: I should have mentioned the BUILD engine too, written single-handedly by one developer for Duke Nukem 3D.

digi_owl 10y ago
And i find it curious how both those engines seems to have more flexiblity in modding than current ones. Maybe because these days you can't get away with a CLI compiler and some freeware to make "total conversions".
- BugsBunnySan 10y ago
  Maybe it's a bit the complexity of todays game engines, but I suspect that also, If you give people that much freedom, the publishers and other DRM-zealots will freak out, since then people will easily build their own servers and such...
  - vvanders 10y ago
    Yup, it's a bit like trying to build a static HTML page with the full AWS stack. There's this incredibly high cost curve for assets. Back about 6 years ago the dev:art ratio was about 1:10 and I'm going to guess it's even higher these days. That's partially also why you see pixel art style thrive in the indie game space. It's the right combination of low production overhead that can still convey a large amount of information/style.
    - animal531 10y ago
      Yeah, 3d is also geometrically (excuse the pun) more difficult to pull off than 2d. Nevermind good looking 3d, animation etc.
- pearle 10y ago
  The Creation engine by Bethesda is still highly mod friendly. For example, there is a fan-made total conversion mod being created for TES V: Skyrim that is a remake of TES III: Morrowind [1]. Also, the SureAI team is creating Enderal, a total conversion mod in a completely different setting [2]. [1] http://tesrenewal.com/blog/blog-post-march http://tesrenewal.com/blog/blog-post-march [2] http://sureai.net/games/enderal/?lang=en http://sureai.net/games/enderal/?lang=en
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Quake got crazy mods like Airquake, made initially by one guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X173LZkEgYc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X173LZkEgYc
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  I think it's more because nowadays the higher "realism" makes asset and level creation much harder. I remember seeing a presentation about "The Order: 1886" where they described how they created the visuals for a simple fire hydrant. With amount of work that went into it you could have created a Doom level.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    That was kinda what i was talking about. Quake 1 had quake-c and a simple compiler (and later decompiler) and some third party freeware to make models and maps. Come Quake 2 you needed visual-C++ and 3D studio to make mods.
    - talmand 10y ago
      I don't recall any freeware to make and animate models for Quake1. Maps, sure; models not so much. Everybody I knew in the mod scene was using 3D Studio. I don't recall what id Software used, but it was something other than 3D Studio. I suppose something came along later on in the lifespan leading up to Quake2?
  - cm3 10y ago
    I would argue that the resources spent on (visual) effects is dumb money trying to improve a game where the creators fail to build a better, more engaging, highly replayable game. To this day, I haven't encountered a better FPS than Quake3. Quake3 isn't the fastest (Painkiller was IIRC), but it hit the sweet spot and today's contenders (including the new Quake) fail to deliver. The new Unreal Tournament looks promising and likely to be a replacement for Unreal Tournament 1. I've tried and failed to play an FPS with a controller on a console and PC. The games are adapted to the imprecise input devices but it's still nothing like the Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament 1 keyboard+mouse experience. I couldn't get a positive experience out of it, and I hope kids getting started will have a chance to play those games as intended in order to have the full picture.
    - cousin_it 10y ago
      > I would argue that the resources spent on (visual) effects is dumb money trying to improve a game where the creators fail to build a better, more engaging, highly replayable game. Graphics make you buy the game, mechanics make you keep playing, and story gives you happy memories afterward. That explains why AAA games have good graphics, average mechanics, and bad stories :-)
bluedino 10y ago
>> written single handled you one developer for duke nukem 3D Ken Silverman was a prodigy of sorts. I always wondered what he would have done if he had ended up staying in the industry. http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm
- cm3 10y ago
  He's building stuff at Voxiebox now: http://www.voxiebox.com/team/ http://www.voxiebox.com/team/
  - philjackson 10y ago
    He looks so young. Please don't let me fund out he built Build while I was ogling the stripper sprites in Duke Nukem and barely managing my CGSE maths homework...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - psuter 10y ago
      From [1]: > 08/24/1993: Ken signs employment agreement with Apogee Software Productions. A special provision on the contract says that Apogee cannot interfere with Ken's education. Inferring from the first entry in the timeline, he must have been 17 or 18 then. [1] http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm
- cm3 10y ago
  http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm: 06/09/1992: Ken's brother, Alan, hogs the computer by playing a new game titled "Wolfenstein 3D" 06/16/1992: I decide I can win over his time by making my own version, originally titled "Walken" (Walk + Ken) http://advsys.net/ken/mrein.htm http://advsys.net/ken/mrein.htm: stonewall: In 1993 you made a proposal for the Build engine on behalf of Epic Games. At the time Epic was releasing pinball games and a year later research began on Unreal. What were your plans for Build and how did not getting that engine affect Epic? Mark: I'd say we came out way ahead the way things worked out. With Ken Silverman (creator of the Build engine) on board we might not have been as motivated to make our own technology. Build was good tech and of course Duke Nukem got made with it, but it wasn't a long-term technology play like the Unreal Engine. So both Epic and 3DRealms ended up better off for the way things worked out. 3DRealms produced the monster hit Duke Nukem 3D and, by complete coincedence, we went on to produce the engine that they will use for the sequel to it.
wiz21c 10y ago
You're forgetting Outcast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast_%28video_game%29
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jason46 10y ago
Getting some sort of 3d accelerator for openGL and turning it on in the settings I remember being a glorious thing.
- phusion 10y ago
  I was a little late to the game and didn't get a 3d card until Quake 2 was out and had been patched a few times. I bought a Diamond Monster 3d (add on card), plugged it in, installed the drivers and loaded up Quake 2... no difference. After being frustrated, I finally found that I had to enable the OpenGL driver/mode and the console screen dropped, then revealed those rockets flying down the hallways in glorious, well lit 3d! I played for hours before finally going to bed, that was truly amazing. I eventually got GLQuake and did the same for Quake 1, it was so exciting!
  - blt 10y ago
    Wow, I have almost the exact same memory. Think mine was a 3dfx-branded Voodoo 2 (released after the Voodoo 3 came out, but I couldn't afford it). The switch from nearest-neighbor to bilinear texture interpolation was amazing, but it was the yellow cast light from moving rockets that I remember most clearly. Q3A and UT were soon to follow, Rainbow Six, it was a good time for PC gaming.
    - tgb 10y ago
      Anyone know what they were doing for lighting by rockets? Seems like per vertex wouldn't work and pixel shaders were a lot way off. Did early opengl have specific functionality for that?
- animal531 10y ago
  Definitely. Going from a max workable resolution of 320x240 up to 3d accelerated 640x480 (with far better looking textures due to mip-mapping) was amazing. The first games I got working on my 3dfx was Quake and Tomb Raider, both game changing for the time.
animal531 10y ago
For me the best game of the era was Shadow Warrior. The amount of detail compared to other titles was staggering.

by cm3 10y ago

digi_owl 10y ago

And i find it curious how both those engines seems to have more flexiblity in modding than current ones. Maybe because these days you can't get away with a CLI compiler and some freeware to make "total conversions".

BugsBunnySan 10y ago
Maybe it's a bit the complexity of todays game engines, but I suspect that also, If you give people that much freedom, the publishers and other DRM-zealots will freak out, since then people will easily build their own servers and such...
- vvanders 10y ago
  Yup, it's a bit like trying to build a static HTML page with the full AWS stack. There's this incredibly high cost curve for assets. Back about 6 years ago the dev:art ratio was about 1:10 and I'm going to guess it's even higher these days. That's partially also why you see pixel art style thrive in the indie game space. It's the right combination of low production overhead that can still convey a large amount of information/style.
  - animal531 10y ago
    Yeah, 3d is also geometrically (excuse the pun) more difficult to pull off than 2d. Nevermind good looking 3d, animation etc.
pearle 10y ago
The Creation engine by Bethesda is still highly mod friendly. For example, there is a fan-made total conversion mod being created for TES V: Skyrim that is a remake of TES III: Morrowind [1]. Also, the SureAI team is creating Enderal, a total conversion mod in a completely different setting [2]. [1] http://tesrenewal.com/blog/blog-post-march http://tesrenewal.com/blog/blog-post-march [2] http://sureai.net/games/enderal/?lang=en http://sureai.net/games/enderal/?lang=en
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Quake got crazy mods like Airquake, made initially by one guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X173LZkEgYc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X173LZkEgYc
Kristine1975 10y ago
I think it's more because nowadays the higher "realism" makes asset and level creation much harder. I remember seeing a presentation about "The Order: 1886" where they described how they created the visuals for a simple fire hydrant. With amount of work that went into it you could have created a Doom level.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  That was kinda what i was talking about. Quake 1 had quake-c and a simple compiler (and later decompiler) and some third party freeware to make models and maps. Come Quake 2 you needed visual-C++ and 3D studio to make mods.
  - talmand 10y ago
    I don't recall any freeware to make and animate models for Quake1. Maps, sure; models not so much. Everybody I knew in the mod scene was using 3D Studio. I don't recall what id Software used, but it was something other than 3D Studio. I suppose something came along later on in the lifespan leading up to Quake2?
- cm3 10y ago
  I would argue that the resources spent on (visual) effects is dumb money trying to improve a game where the creators fail to build a better, more engaging, highly replayable game. To this day, I haven't encountered a better FPS than Quake3. Quake3 isn't the fastest (Painkiller was IIRC), but it hit the sweet spot and today's contenders (including the new Quake) fail to deliver. The new Unreal Tournament looks promising and likely to be a replacement for Unreal Tournament 1. I've tried and failed to play an FPS with a controller on a console and PC. The games are adapted to the imprecise input devices but it's still nothing like the Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament 1 keyboard+mouse experience. I couldn't get a positive experience out of it, and I hope kids getting started will have a chance to play those games as intended in order to have the full picture.
  - cousin_it 10y ago
    > I would argue that the resources spent on (visual) effects is dumb money trying to improve a game where the creators fail to build a better, more engaging, highly replayable game. Graphics make you buy the game, mechanics make you keep playing, and story gives you happy memories afterward. That explains why AAA games have good graphics, average mechanics, and bad stories :-)

bluedino 10y ago

>> written single handled you one developer for duke nukem 3D Ken Silverman was a prodigy of sorts. I always wondered what he would have done if he had ended up staying in the industry. http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm

cm3 10y ago
He's building stuff at Voxiebox now: http://www.voxiebox.com/team/ http://www.voxiebox.com/team/
- philjackson 10y ago
  He looks so young. Please don't let me fund out he built Build while I was ogling the stripper sprites in Duke Nukem and barely managing my CGSE maths homework...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - psuter 10y ago
    From [1]: > 08/24/1993: Ken signs employment agreement with Apogee Software Productions. A special provision on the contract says that Apogee cannot interfere with Ken's education. Inferring from the first entry in the timeline, he must have been 17 or 18 then. [1] http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm
cm3 10y ago
http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm http://advsys.net/ken/build.htm: 06/09/1992: Ken's brother, Alan, hogs the computer by playing a new game titled "Wolfenstein 3D" 06/16/1992: I decide I can win over his time by making my own version, originally titled "Walken" (Walk + Ken) http://advsys.net/ken/mrein.htm http://advsys.net/ken/mrein.htm: stonewall: In 1993 you made a proposal for the Build engine on behalf of Epic Games. At the time Epic was releasing pinball games and a year later research began on Unreal. What were your plans for Build and how did not getting that engine affect Epic? Mark: I'd say we came out way ahead the way things worked out. With Ken Silverman (creator of the Build engine) on board we might not have been as motivated to make our own technology. Build was good tech and of course Duke Nukem got made with it, but it wasn't a long-term technology play like the Unreal Engine. So both Epic and 3DRealms ended up better off for the way things worked out. 3DRealms produced the monster hit Duke Nukem 3D and, by complete coincedence, we went on to produce the engine that they will use for the sequel to it.

wiz21c 10y ago

You're forgetting Outcast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast_%28video_game%29

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jason46 10y ago

Getting some sort of 3d accelerator for openGL and turning it on in the settings I remember being a glorious thing.

phusion 10y ago
I was a little late to the game and didn't get a 3d card until Quake 2 was out and had been patched a few times. I bought a Diamond Monster 3d (add on card), plugged it in, installed the drivers and loaded up Quake 2... no difference. After being frustrated, I finally found that I had to enable the OpenGL driver/mode and the console screen dropped, then revealed those rockets flying down the hallways in glorious, well lit 3d! I played for hours before finally going to bed, that was truly amazing. I eventually got GLQuake and did the same for Quake 1, it was so exciting!
- blt 10y ago
  Wow, I have almost the exact same memory. Think mine was a 3dfx-branded Voodoo 2 (released after the Voodoo 3 came out, but I couldn't afford it). The switch from nearest-neighbor to bilinear texture interpolation was amazing, but it was the yellow cast light from moving rockets that I remember most clearly. Q3A and UT were soon to follow, Rainbow Six, it was a good time for PC gaming.
  - tgb 10y ago
    Anyone know what they were doing for lighting by rockets? Seems like per vertex wouldn't work and pixel shaders were a lot way off. Did early opengl have specific functionality for that?
animal531 10y ago
Definitely. Going from a max workable resolution of 320x240 up to 3d accelerated 640x480 (with far better looking textures due to mip-mapping) was amazing. The first games I got working on my 3dfx was Quake and Tomb Raider, both game changing for the time.

animal531 10y ago

For me the best game of the era was Shadow Warrior. The amount of detail compared to other titles was staggering.