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Lamborghini Is Forging Ahead with Forged Carbon Fiber
- arcanus 10y agoHas Lamborghini ever made a car that had actual technical merit as a racecar? I'm general, supercars are vastly overpriced for what you get. You can easily crush most for a fraction of the price with a dedicated track car. But simultaneously, no supercars are remotely practical on the road, and in fact are not even fun to drive on the street because of speed limits. Some supercars have been a good investment, such as the Mclaren F1, but the majority depreciate immediately. I don't really see the point.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago"because it's bleeding edge and we can"
- arcanus 10y agoSee that's my point: you can buy a track car for a fraction of the price that is objectively more bleeding edge. The track car has faster lap times, which is the reason one is buying the car. You can argue it's the fastest car that also has an air conditioning unit, I suppose. Hell, I saw someone running a '94 F1 open-wheel car around COTA last month. He said he purchased it for less than 100k. No supercars would come close to those track times. Probably more fun to drive, as well. Make no mistake, F1 and automotive racing is high tech goodness. Supercars are just overpriced.
- yardie 10y agoAt least in the US, supercars are street legal (McLaren F1 being an exceptional exception) and the only way to do it is crash test. For every model you see on the street 3 had to be sacrificed.
- gaadd33 10y agoNot if you import it under the Show and Display act, then you only need to meet emissions requirements. Supposedly Bill Gates helped get the act passed so he could import his Porsche 959.
- lgas 10y agoWhat makes you think that people only buy cars for one reason at a time?
- rconti 10y agoHow many track days can he run with his F1 car before he needs the engine to be rebuilt from parts that no longer exist?
- ams6110 10y agoWell the Huracan is near the top of the Top Gear lap times, but is beaten by track cars such as the Ariel Atom. They are status symbols mostly. They are absolutely not practical for any kind of normal transportation.
- Shivetya 10y agoOne thing to understand is that a lot of new wealth is not in Western nations and some, regardless of where they live, have access to where they can play with their toys. Throw in exclusivity which some makers exploit by having limited run versions. While the prices are silly, one can ask why would anyone pay more than 20k for car when that can buy you safety and comfort for four? Just like my impulse purchases can be a certain amount that is fine for me but extravagant for some and cheap by others.
- pm90 10y agoExactly. Luxury good manufacturers have recognized this trend a while ago, that the nouveau riche from non-western countries have a tendency to purchase all these toys in a me-too competition with their counterparts in the west. Its a shame since I would expect them to have better sense than that to have accumulated that much wealth. Then again, its their money so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- pjc50 10y agoDepends what you think the purpose of having wealth is. Why can't it just be the means to the end of having more toys? Especially when the wealth is inherited or kleptocratic.
- pm90 10y agoI guess that's true; one can't really tell or moralize about other people's money. They are free to do as they wish; I agree with that on a personal level. But if we think of wealth more than an abstract thing and more as a societal contract, then things do change a little bit. Wealth is society's way of abstracting the capacity to work. You can keep all your wealth in gold coins in a big building but without a society that values it, its really not worth that much. Wealth is a claim on other people's work, other people being members of a society. So, we have the situation that only the combination of wealth and society is actually worth anything. If that is the case, it is in the interest of the wealthy, to foster a society in which 1) More work can be obtained in total and 2) More work can be obtained for less money. The former leads to philanthropy (betterment of society), and the latter leads to lobbying against taxation for the rich and other measures to redistribute income; since when more wealth is held by few, the few can make the many work for less (more labor than capital). But wait, there is another dimension: if you think about the wealthy in Germany buying an expensive BMW, it still doesn't seem as bad, since the wealth is still within German society. But when you have wealthy Chinese buying a German car, then the wealth which was accumulated by the labor of the Chinese society is now going to the German society.
- conistonwater 10y agoIf you're a company making Veblen goods, the last thing you want is to make something that's worth all that money. Then it's not a Veblen good any more!
- db1 10y agoAha, interesting, I'd never heard of Veblen goods before this. I'd also never thought about it in this manner before, making it a better product would make it actually worth the money, and hence less desirable. The world is such a weird place.
- conistonwater 10y agoI wasn't being totally serious there.
- wallace_f 10y agoIf you're after performance, a shifter cart, well... especially a super kart will beat 99% of anything Ferrari and Lamborghini have produced, on almost any track. Superkarts even hold the outright lap records on some tracks, over F1 cars even. Shifter carts are reasonably cheap and they're a hell of a lot of fun and adrenaline. If you truly like racing, that's where a lot of the F1 guys start their careers. Not the safest thing in the world, though. Spec Miata is way more tame, relaxed and safer.
- asimuvPR 10y agoThey are really hard to drive. A quarter inch of steering input goes a long way on those things. I will never drive another one. Its mental.
- wallace_f 10y agoAre you talking super karts or shifter karts? I've had a lot of fun in shifter karts, but never been on the track in a real super kart.
- akuma73 10y agoThe point is to broadcast your economic status.
- hkmurakami 10y agoTo add, when broadcasting your economic status, the more impractical that purchase is, the better.
- Florin_Andrei 10y ago> in fact are not even fun to drive on the street because of speed limits Well, race replica sportbikes are not fun to ride on the street for the same reason. However, get out of the city and seek the lesser-known winding roads up in the hills, and suddenly the bike is a ton of fun. I guess for some folks the supercar is the same (not for me, though - for me the fun ends as soon as you put me in a closed cage on 4 wheels, no idea why). Source: I've a sportbike and I play with it once in a while.
- arcanus 10y agoI've got a Honda cbr600, love it. But a top Ducati sport bike costs 40k, not 400k.
- criddell 10y agoWhen you are very rich, the difference between $400k and $40k isn't noticeable.
- fsloth 10y agoIs this from experience? Most wealthy people I know are also the most cost sensitive.
- criddell 10y agoEverything I know, I learned on Tumblr. http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com/ http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com/
- marssaxman 10y agoSince most of us are not and never will be very rich, the fact that a not-rich person can buy and ride a motorcycle which will easily smoke the pants off any car but the sort of supercar only a very rich person could buy is, in fact, noticeable.
- brobinson 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- joshu 10y agoModern modern ones are a bit cramped but are as practical as any other sports car (that is, not particularly.) There is a Lamborghini series (super trofeo) but not much beyond that. I rarely even see them at track days. Quattro drive (or whatever it is called now) is not really awesome for road racing. It causes too much understeer. That said, I heard the Huracan is much better than previous cars. (I own and have tracked a McLaren but I am thinking of swapping it out for something more practical for track use. It is less fun than racing my 1992 Spec Miata, for example...) They are terrible investments. I buy cars after they have fallen way down the depreciation curve.
- cpursley 10y agoWhat's funny about supercars is you rarely see them on the track. It's the folks out there with their spec Miatas having all the fun. I've passed more 100k+ Vipers, M5s and Ferraris on track day in a first-gen 130bhp Miata than I can remember. Working on a Chump car (http://www.chumpcar.com/ http://www.chumpcar.com/) build with my brothers now. I've met people racing in that series who've owned every supercar imaginable. But when it's a beater with some safety equipment, what do you have to lose :)
- sundvor 10y agoNice. There's something about showing up people with vastly deeper pockets than ability... I recall finally passing a GSXR1000 on my lowly CBR250RR about a decade ago on Philip Island, last few corners. He repassed me on the pit straight but then I got him back by nailing T1 and stayed there. That felt pretty sweet. (I'm a tall / heavy guy compared to the 250, so suspension etc was not proper; the GPR70 tyres were just about the only good thing)
- mietek 10y agoThe CBR250RR is one of the best-sounding bikes ever made. Gotta love screaming about at 20K RPM. I wish I could see one in person; sadly, they’re not too popular in the UK. Greetings from a Cagiva Mito rider.
- brobinson 10y ago>Has Lamborghini ever made a car that had actual technical merit as a racecar? There's a GT3 version of the Huracan, that's all I've seen. http://squadracorse.lamborghini.com/en/cars/huracan-gt3/overview/ http://squadracorse.lamborghini.com/en/cars/huracan-gt3/over...
- nettdata 10y agoThere were 5 of them that competed in this year's 24 Hours of Daytona, and Lambo is looking at an LMP1 car for Le Mans next year.
- brobinson 10y agoThat's right! I watched a lot of Le Mans this year but I was mostly focused on GTE Pro and GTA Am when I found out DHH was racing. I hope Ford does a LMP1 next year, too.
- cpursley 10y agoAgreed. Lambos are status symbols. A carbon fiber supercar that impresses me (and is actually raced and wins ~ see last week's Le Mans) is the new Ford GT. You even have to submit a video interview because Ford wants actual enthusiasts, not "collectors", to purchase them from the limited run. https://www.ford.com/performance/gt/ https://www.ford.com/performance/gt/
- taxicabjesus 10y agoOne of my wealthier passengers was closing up the family's winter home in north Scottsdale. I asked my usual questions, and eventually he told me how the garage at the pickup location had one of the million-dollar Porsche 911's, and that their Ford GT was a much better car... In Colorado, the Hummer H1 was completely worthless in the winter. His 4wd suburban hybrid was great in the snow.
- gaadd33 10y agoI wonder what 911 that was, the only million dollar ones that come to mind are either a rare racing version from the 70s or something like a 911GT1. As a daily driver a Ford GT would be way better than either, as a race car on a track I would argue otherwise.
- taxicabjesus 10y agoIt might've been a 918, or a carrera GT. This was 2 or 3 years ago. I just remember that it was an "absurdly expensive" model, where a regular 911 was cheap in comparison. Edit: The difference between the ford and the Porsche was that you felt every road crack in the Porsche, such that it was barely driveable.
- dsfyu404ed 10y agoThe H1 was worthless because of the very small intersection between what the people who sped'd the H1 wanted it to do and what most people driving on the road in the snow want it to do. Once you're off the road the H1 should be pretty awesome in the snow since you won't even be snow-plowing with the A-arms until there's more than 18" of snow. I'm not trying to be a H1/m998 fanboy but it does what it was meant to do very well (and that's about all it does very well)
- eanzenberg 10y agoDo enthusiast car engines last longer than track car engines? Because I remember hearing that true track race car engines last a very short amount of time before they need work done. Maybe because they live at higher rpms?
- joshu 10y agoThe more aggressively tuned an engine is, the less time it runs before it needs a rebuild.
- jaytaylor 10y agoThat's a whole other conversation just by itself. There are other factors that may even further reduce an engines life.
- dredmorbius 10y agoSuch as?
- dsfyu404ed 10y agooperating hours below normal operating temp. That's why cop cars, taxis, industrial engines and other stuff that doesn't get turned off very often frequently lasts well beyond 200k (or the equivalent number of operating hours) wheras something used for a 5min drive to work and back every day will be worn out in much less time. This is assuming all other variables are consistent. Changing your oil every 10k vs 5k certainly won't help things.
- dredmorbius 10y agoThanks.
- jaytaylor 10y agoParticular driving styles. For example, if you have a boxer engine with a turbo and floor it for the duration of a long banked turn, centrifugal force can prevent the oil from circulating through the engine and it can get damaged. There are gotcha's like this which complicate the equation.
- FussyZeus 10y agoWell yeah but since Audi bought them they actually have decent guts as opposed to just being really pretty show ponies. The Aventador was an R8 with a really good bodykit and there was NOTHING bad about that, it was the first Lambo in a long time that could actually take a corner at speed.
- Viper007Bond 10y agoThe Gallardo was the rebodied R8. The Aventador is a true bonkers Lamborghini.
- FussyZeus 10y agoAh, quite right. Not enough coffee when I made that comment, thanks.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rahulravu96 10y agoNot really.. the first generation R8 was offered with a choice of V8 and V10 engines versus aventador which comes with a v12 option only. Nor does the R8 have the carbon fiber tub or the suspension of the aventador.
- hbosch 10y agoDon't disregard arguably the best supercar of them all: the early 1990s Acura NSX. ;) Reliable, gorgeous, powerful, thrilling, and depending on when you bought it over the last couple decades ... A decent investment even.
- wastedhours 10y agoThen you're not the target market. There's a fundamental difference between a "premium" product (which is objectively better) and a "luxury" product (which is intangibly better) - people spend money to get the halo effect imparted on supercars, might be vain or illogical, but it's a pretty common human trait. Also, I've driven track and super cars and would say supercars on the road can still be fun, although having also had a go in a single seater (FRenault), would say that wipes the floor with them all on a track.
- staticelf 10y agoIf you are a male, attracting females is a lot easier if you own a supercar. It signals that you are very wealthy.
- omginternets 10y agoMaybe this is a case of sour grapes, but I shudder at the thought of what kind of females one attracts with a supercar...
- saiya-jin 10y agowrong type of females to be precise, but I guess it depends how much you expect from those...
- nxzero 10y ago>> "Forged Composites (FC) carbon fiber looks more like marble or burl wood versus the traditional black woven fabric carbon fiber" Not that I'd ever buy a supercar, but personally think the look of FC looks cheap compared to the woven carbon fiber.
- hinkley 10y agoSeems like that would be fixed by lining the molds with a layer or two of impregnated carbon fiber cloth.
- rhizome 10y agoLooks like what Campagnolo has been doing to make their high-end equipment: http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/5360052668/campy-record-chainset.jpg?w=1000&h=1000&a=7 http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/5360052668/campy-r...
- walrus01 10y ago"Carbon fiber everything" is a really great marketing strategy for a veblen good, primarily because CF is light and looks sexy, but I'm not sure it's a huge technical achievement. If you look at full-CF road bike frames in 2002, 2003 or so they were a super premium priced hand crafted thing. Now they are a commodity item from China and Taiwan that you can buy for $600 if you're building your own road bike. Example: "Chinarello" (Pinarello): https://www.google.com/search?q=chinarello&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b https://www.google.com/search?q=chinarello&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8...
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y agoI still ride a cheap mail-order monocoque road bike from ... 2004? The knockoffs were available pretty much from the outset as they generally were just used molds or copies, all made in the same factory. Still rides beautifully and I've never seen the need to 'upgrade'.
- jontaylor 10y agoReducing weight in the connecting rods should mean that the engine can rev higher.
- ekekekekekekl 10y agoLooks like they've found a way to profitably leverage recycled carbon fiber.
- rconti 10y agoUpcoming mid-engined Corvette? This is the "Duke Nukem Forever" of the car world.
- TrevorJ 10y agoSomehow they will still manage to make sure it corners poorly too.
- aetherspawn 10y agoI would predict that this manufacture method, with many small cut-up pieces of carbon, is going to produce relatively weak parts in comparison to equivalent twill prepreg, thus you'll need more carbon to reach the same strength and it will be heavier. Carbon is good in tension because you're pulling a whole bunch of atomically perfect lightweight strings, but when you have chopped up fragments like this you're really only casting resin with reinforced mashed bits. Additionally, in real carbon parts you orientate the fabrics to get perfect tension/compression in the direction of the loads, or use multiple orientations bonded together for good all-round strength, but this manufacture method would have randomly oriented fiber directions.
- jacquesm 10y agoIt's just marketing. The buyers know about as much materials science as the average office worker and will not have a clue about what the real applications of carbon fiber are like. They simply associate carbon fiber with 'modern, good, expensive, strong'. Most likely they would not be able to appreciate your comment. At a sailmaker where I worked in NL we worked on laying carbon fiber manually and laminating it to make sails that had almost no stretch for race applications, your comment is spot on and exactly why this whole exercise is pointless. It's all about getting long strands of fiber along stress lines and to make them denser where the stress is highest, a pour like described in the article negates a whole pile of the advantages that carbon fiber has. But it's a lot more efficient than laying long fibers and it still uses the same material so it will be sold.
- geon 10y agoFrom wikipedia about forging: > As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics This process seems to be just casting. Why do they call it forging?
- Neil44 10y agoIt seems they call it that because of the goal to use this process to replace forged metal parts. I agree though it seems misleading.