3 ms·

For something that involves the US gov, anthrax, and a crowded public place, that was remarkably ethical. Clickbaity title IMO, but I'm not sure what to sugges

by PeCaN 10y ago

For something that involves the US gov, anthrax, and a crowded public place, that was remarkably ethical. Clickbaity title IMO, but I'm not sure what to suggest. I think the current title suggests malice on the part of the US gov, but they were actually just doing some interesting research.

nickoakland 10y ago
Can confirm that similar tests were run in the DC Metro as early as 2003.
dmlorenzetti 10y ago
NYC, DC, and Oklahoma City, among other places, have hosted a number of trials like this. Having just attended a conference on atmospheric transport and dispersion [0], I know multiple organizations use the resulting data to validate their transport models. Subways are really interesting beasts from the point of view of people who try to model the transport and fate of airborne materials. The trains themselves pump material through the tubes, the cars entrain material in their wake, and the cars capture and carry material along with the passengers (meaning you can disperse material even after a car comes out from underground). All this is intermittent and bi-directional, following the train schedules. And then it's all tightly coupled to the city's above-ground airflow patterns, both because the train stations have massive ventilation exchange with the outdoors, and because there can be passive vents at street level. Particles add another layer to the problem. As the article states, they deposit out of the air, and they can resuspend, e.g., due to human activity. They can also hitch a ride on people and things. They also get captured in ventilation system filters. Finally the rates at which they do all these things depends strongly on the particle size -- and the particle size can change due to things like coagulation. [0] http://camp.cos.gmu.edu/20th-announcement.html http://camp.cos.gmu.edu/20th-announcement.html
jsprogrammer 10y ago
Can you point to a word, or collection of words in the title that you think suggests malice? Or, is it the whole title that makes the suggestion? As I am reading the title, no malice is suggested. It seems to just be a plain statement of fact.
- biot 10y ago
  They conducted airflow tests in order to understand and model how airborne material would spread. They didn't conduct bioterror research.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    Well, they conducted airflow tests related to bioterror threats which is most of what makes the story newsworthy. But that's getting a bit long for a headline.
  - dang 10y ago
    Ok, we'll use that phrase in the title above.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I think it's the juxtaposition of "US government," "bioterror," and "NYC subway system" (i.e. place with lots of people) that collectively sort of create the expectation that the story is going to be about the government doing experiments that put a bunch of civilians at risk. I think there's also a certain expectation set by the fact that it is a news story that it's going to be a news story about something at least arguably bad that the government did. I'm not sure that the headline is even clickbaity--don't know how I'd rewrite it. But I can easily see someone reading it to go to the story with an expectation of malice or at least stupidity.
- Johnny555 10y ago
  "Bioterror research in the subway" brings to mind live virus or bacterial tests with "harmless" microbes like the tests over San Franciscon in the 1950's that may or may not have sickened (or possibly killed) residents sickened by the bacteria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray Though I wonder what testing was done to prove that the aerosol (made from wheat and corn starch, tagged with DNA) they they are spraying this time is harmless?

by PeCaN 10y ago

nickoakland 10y ago

Can confirm that similar tests were run in the DC Metro as early as 2003.

dmlorenzetti 10y ago

NYC, DC, and Oklahoma City, among other places, have hosted a number of trials like this. Having just attended a conference on atmospheric transport and dispersion [0], I know multiple organizations use the resulting data to validate their transport models. Subways are really interesting beasts from the point of view of people who try to model the transport and fate of airborne materials. The trains themselves pump material through the tubes, the cars entrain material in their wake, and the cars capture and carry material along with the passengers (meaning you can disperse material even after a car comes out from underground). All this is intermittent and bi-directional, following the train schedules. And then it's all tightly coupled to the city's above-ground airflow patterns, both because the train stations have massive ventilation exchange with the outdoors, and because there can be passive vents at street level. Particles add another layer to the problem. As the article states, they deposit out of the air, and they can resuspend, e.g., due to human activity. They can also hitch a ride on people and things. They also get captured in ventilation system filters. Finally the rates at which they do all these things depends strongly on the particle size -- and the particle size can change due to things like coagulation. [0] http://camp.cos.gmu.edu/20th-announcement.html http://camp.cos.gmu.edu/20th-announcement.html

jsprogrammer 10y ago

Can you point to a word, or collection of words in the title that you think suggests malice? Or, is it the whole title that makes the suggestion? As I am reading the title, no malice is suggested. It seems to just be a plain statement of fact.

biot 10y ago
They conducted airflow tests in order to understand and model how airborne material would spread. They didn't conduct bioterror research.
- ghaff 10y ago
  Well, they conducted airflow tests related to bioterror threats which is most of what makes the story newsworthy. But that's getting a bit long for a headline.
- dang 10y ago
  Ok, we'll use that phrase in the title above.
ghaff 10y ago
I think it's the juxtaposition of "US government," "bioterror," and "NYC subway system" (i.e. place with lots of people) that collectively sort of create the expectation that the story is going to be about the government doing experiments that put a bunch of civilians at risk. I think there's also a certain expectation set by the fact that it is a news story that it's going to be a news story about something at least arguably bad that the government did. I'm not sure that the headline is even clickbaity--don't know how I'd rewrite it. But I can easily see someone reading it to go to the story with an expectation of malice or at least stupidity.
Johnny555 10y ago
"Bioterror research in the subway" brings to mind live virus or bacterial tests with "harmless" microbes like the tests over San Franciscon in the 1950's that may or may not have sickened (or possibly killed) residents sickened by the bacteria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray Though I wonder what testing was done to prove that the aerosol (made from wheat and corn starch, tagged with DNA) they they are spraying this time is harmless?