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Four opinions, going off of this article and partly in response to Gruber's[0]: 1. There was a functional reason that CDs and floppies went out of style: low c

by markbao 10y ago

Four opinions, going off of this article and partly in response to Gruber's[0]: 1. There was a functional reason that CDs and floppies went out of style: low capacity and the Internet. What’s the functional reason to get rid of analog headphones? It’s not quality – analog headphones have excellent sound quality, and 99% of people won’t be able to tell the difference with ‘digital’ sound, right? 2. So what happens if I want to charge my phone (e.g. from an external battery) and listen to headphones at the same time? Do I have to use some sort of ... dongle? That’s going to get silly. 3. Wireless headphones are ideal, but the price-to-performance ratio still sucks. Maybe if in the future we all have excellent wireless headphones, it might be a good idea to remove the headphone jack and provide a legacy wired output through the Lightning port, but we're not there yet. 4. Why do this in an era of declining iPhone sales growth? Admittedly, analog headphone jacks will go away at some point, but I hope it's not before we have an elegant solution to these problems – like wireless headphones, perhaps. [0] https://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_new_floppy_drives https://daringfireball.net/2016/06/headphone_jacks_are_the_n...

nibnib 10y ago
Wireless headphones are another battery to charge, maintain, replace... Not ideal, imo not even an improvement. My phone is on my person when I use headphones with it, so untethering isn't really a plus. The only advantage I can think of is keeping a phone in a pocket or bag while listening to music, which doesn't seem worth it all.
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  Wireless headphones with a dead battery should[1] work when plugged into the phone. So if you don't want to worry about the battery, just keep it connected to the phone. Sort of the best of both worlds. should: I don't know if they actually do, I've never used usb-c or lightning headphones. But they should.
rsync 10y ago
"So what happens if I want to charge my phone (e.g. from an external battery) and listen to headphones at the same time? Do I have to use some sort of ... dongle? That’s going to get silly." What happens if you want to charge your new 12" macbook and you also need to use your cellular dongle ? They've shown total contempt for even this common, necessary use-case - why would they not show the same contempt for your use-case ? "Admittedly, analog headphone jacks will go away at some point" There is no reason to assume that. Only a childish contempt for "old things" and a desire to fix things that aren't broken would lead to that outcome.
- vocatus_gate 10y ago
  I have a strong distaste for what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery;" the idea that something is worthless simply because it isn't new. Age is meaningless when evaluating technology and its function. It could be 1000 years old or 10; what matters if fulfills the requirements of the relevant use-case in an acceptable manner.
  - niels_olson 10y ago
    Hammers work great. Always have.
    - rawTruthHurts 10y ago
      And still... http://static-media.fxx.com/img/FX_Networks_-_FXX/641/266/Simpsons_10_03.jpg http://static-media.fxx.com/img/FX_Networks_-_FXX/641/266/Si...
    - y4mi 10y ago
      and yet we've got nailgun "nowadays" (though they're already ancient at this point too). people that actually need to drive in silly amounts of nails no longer use traditional hammers.
- chiph 10y ago
  It's not just Apple doing this. Lenovo/Moto is removing the 3.5mm jack from their next Android phone too.
jccc 10y ago
Daring Fireball: > Maybe now is the wrong time, and Apple is making a mistake. I don’t know. You might be responding to the Gruber in your head rather than the one who wrote that post. He's not extolling the virtues of Apple's decision, saying it was the right thing. He's responding to Patel's reaction to it. It's okay for people to be ambivalent, or to have an opinion on only some aspects of an issue. Not everything you see is Red Team vs. Blue Team. (He also kind of addressed some of your other points in the article as well, but perhaps not to your satisfaction or as directly as you'd like.)
- markbao 10y ago
  > You might be responding to the Gruber in your head rather than the one who wrote that post. You're probably right – there's likely more mutually shared opinions between my thoughts and Gruber's article than I think, though I'm only partly responding to his post. > (He also kind of addressed some of your other points in the article as well, but perhaps not to your satisfaction or as directly as you'd like.) Yes, exactly. I think a big thing that got me was his response to the dongle question: "External floppy drives sucked too." That's it. Not quite the level of detail I was looking for.
riprowan 10y ago
> What’s the functional reason to get rid of analog headphones? It’s not quality – analog headphones have excellent sound quality, and 99% of people won’t be able to tell the difference with ‘digital’ sound, right? You have it backward - analog headphones are superior, generally speaking. The signal chain is: digital source > D/A converter > amplifier > transducer (speaker / headphone) "Digital headphones" simply move the D/A converter, amplifier, and transducer into the headphone package. In almost all cases, the higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier will be ones not crammed into your headphones; and the higher-quality transducers are not the ones packaged with a cheap DAC and low-power amplifier into your earbuds. The same holds true for speakers (exception being high-quality powered loudspeakers, still, keep the DACs out of the speakers). And don't get me started about Bluetooth....
- markbao 10y ago
  Wow, that's super interesting. I learned something today, thanks! Yes, I worry even more about Bluetooth. But I guess 80% of people won't be able to tell the difference (or care), so I don't know.
- tzs 10y ago
  I think it makes more sense to put the D/A and amp in the headphones. If you want a particular quality level of sound, you need a particular quality level D/A, amp, and transducer. If these are all in the headphones then you choose your quality level by choosing your headphones. If you use your headphones with more than one device you get your chosen quality level on all of those devices. With the D/A and amp in the device then your quality level can vary from device to device depending on the D/A and amp quality of those devices. If you want higher quality you not only need to get high quality headphones, you also have to get high quality devices. Since device makers are going to tend to put their best D/As and amps on their higher end devices those who want higher audio quality will have to be higher end devices even if they don't need most of the features those higher end devices offer. With the D/A and amp in the headphones they can buy phones and tablets and such that just do what they need and no more, which should save them some money (money which can go toward one set of headphones with a top notch D/A and amp).
IkmoIkmo 10y ago
Great points, and mostly agree. 1. as far as I know, the jack takes up quite a bit of volume, it's a long and empty space, that could be used for battery, heatsink etc. It's a minor save, but smartphones are some of the most volume-dependent devices, and marginal benefits can be high. i.e. most users may swing around say 4 hours of screen on-time, and get frustrated with 3.8h of capacity. Small increases can push them over the contentness-edge. I'm very much reaching here, it's not a very compelling argument imo, but there's some benefit there nonetheless. 2. So apparently I'm the edge case who never charges while listening, it's just not a thing for me. I charge once, at night, and it's fine. (Galaxy S7). In a car I'm happy with my phone's speakers or a wireless setup, and in newer cars especially a usb-audio or bluetooth audio setup shouldn't be a problem. (ignoring obvious transition issues). And especially here, in a private, safe, storage area like a car is, I'm okay (obviously not thrilled) to buy and one-time mount a $25 dongle. Not the end of the world for me. Same with my fixed office space, and that's about all big usecases I can think of. 3. Completely agree, however it must be noted that stuff like this pushes wireless audio quality forward. There's suddenly a forced market demand when the port drops, which opens up industry incentives to push wireless price/performance ratio improvements which I feel are around the corner (and partially announced already). And tech wise a lot more is possible than the quality we've had in the past years. And price wise, a LOT more should be possible than the past few years of price points. Also I'm expecting Apple (let's not forget, a producer of custom earbuds for years, and buyer of Beats) to drop decent wireless tech, too. I want good wireless audio tech regardless of whether I'm forced to use it lacking a port or not. (!) Again, obvious transition issues but it's alright. 4. Rumours are hey're looking to reinvent their base model with oled screens, no home button, edge to edge screen, delayed to 2017. i.e. a move away from a phone that has ports and buttons, towards a device that's completely digital, mostly screen and almost fully wireless. And I think that makes a lot of sense, stylistically too, if rumours are true and they can pull it off. That can reinvigorate sales, because let's be fair, the iPhone 6 was 'good enough', kind of like the Nexus 5 (still a lovely phone I'd happily use) was for the mid-section, the 6 was at the top-end of the market. I've got lots of friends with a 6 who just don't care for iterations. Something radical is needed to get them to buy, and dropping this port long-term as part of the 10y iPhone anniversary update is part of that narrative. Lots of speculation here of course, just thinking out loud to try and discuss your questions.

by markbao 10y ago

nibnib 10y ago

Wireless headphones are another battery to charge, maintain, replace... Not ideal, imo not even an improvement. My phone is on my person when I use headphones with it, so untethering isn't really a plus. The only advantage I can think of is keeping a phone in a pocket or bag while listening to music, which doesn't seem worth it all.

bryanlarsen 10y ago
Wireless headphones with a dead battery should[1] work when plugged into the phone. So if you don't want to worry about the battery, just keep it connected to the phone. Sort of the best of both worlds. should: I don't know if they actually do, I've never used usb-c or lightning headphones. But they should.

rsync 10y ago

"So what happens if I want to charge my phone (e.g. from an external battery) and listen to headphones at the same time? Do I have to use some sort of ... dongle? That’s going to get silly." What happens if you want to charge your new 12" macbook and you also need to use your cellular dongle ? They've shown total contempt for even this common, necessary use-case - why would they not show the same contempt for your use-case ? "Admittedly, analog headphone jacks will go away at some point" There is no reason to assume that. Only a childish contempt for "old things" and a desire to fix things that aren't broken would lead to that outcome.

vocatus_gate 10y ago
I have a strong distaste for what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery;" the idea that something is worthless simply because it isn't new. Age is meaningless when evaluating technology and its function. It could be 1000 years old or 10; what matters if fulfills the requirements of the relevant use-case in an acceptable manner.
- niels_olson 10y ago
  Hammers work great. Always have.
  - rawTruthHurts 10y ago
    And still... http://static-media.fxx.com/img/FX_Networks_-_FXX/641/266/Simpsons_10_03.jpg http://static-media.fxx.com/img/FX_Networks_-_FXX/641/266/Si...
  - y4mi 10y ago
    and yet we've got nailgun "nowadays" (though they're already ancient at this point too). people that actually need to drive in silly amounts of nails no longer use traditional hammers.
chiph 10y ago
It's not just Apple doing this. Lenovo/Moto is removing the 3.5mm jack from their next Android phone too.

jccc 10y ago

Daring Fireball: > Maybe now is the wrong time, and Apple is making a mistake. I don’t know. You might be responding to the Gruber in your head rather than the one who wrote that post. He's not extolling the virtues of Apple's decision, saying it was the right thing. He's responding to Patel's reaction to it. It's okay for people to be ambivalent, or to have an opinion on only some aspects of an issue. Not everything you see is Red Team vs. Blue Team. (He also kind of addressed some of your other points in the article as well, but perhaps not to your satisfaction or as directly as you'd like.)

markbao 10y ago
> You might be responding to the Gruber in your head rather than the one who wrote that post. You're probably right – there's likely more mutually shared opinions between my thoughts and Gruber's article than I think, though I'm only partly responding to his post. > (He also kind of addressed some of your other points in the article as well, but perhaps not to your satisfaction or as directly as you'd like.) Yes, exactly. I think a big thing that got me was his response to the dongle question: "External floppy drives sucked too." That's it. Not quite the level of detail I was looking for.

riprowan 10y ago

> What’s the functional reason to get rid of analog headphones? It’s not quality – analog headphones have excellent sound quality, and 99% of people won’t be able to tell the difference with ‘digital’ sound, right? You have it backward - analog headphones are superior, generally speaking. The signal chain is: digital source > D/A converter > amplifier > transducer (speaker / headphone) "Digital headphones" simply move the D/A converter, amplifier, and transducer into the headphone package. In almost all cases, the higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier will be ones not crammed into your headphones; and the higher-quality transducers are not the ones packaged with a cheap DAC and low-power amplifier into your earbuds. The same holds true for speakers (exception being high-quality powered loudspeakers, still, keep the DACs out of the speakers). And don't get me started about Bluetooth....

markbao 10y ago
Wow, that's super interesting. I learned something today, thanks! Yes, I worry even more about Bluetooth. But I guess 80% of people won't be able to tell the difference (or care), so I don't know.
tzs 10y ago
I think it makes more sense to put the D/A and amp in the headphones. If you want a particular quality level of sound, you need a particular quality level D/A, amp, and transducer. If these are all in the headphones then you choose your quality level by choosing your headphones. If you use your headphones with more than one device you get your chosen quality level on all of those devices. With the D/A and amp in the device then your quality level can vary from device to device depending on the D/A and amp quality of those devices. If you want higher quality you not only need to get high quality headphones, you also have to get high quality devices. Since device makers are going to tend to put their best D/As and amps on their higher end devices those who want higher audio quality will have to be higher end devices even if they don't need most of the features those higher end devices offer. With the D/A and amp in the headphones they can buy phones and tablets and such that just do what they need and no more, which should save them some money (money which can go toward one set of headphones with a top notch D/A and amp).

IkmoIkmo 10y ago

Great points, and mostly agree. 1. as far as I know, the jack takes up quite a bit of volume, it's a long and empty space, that could be used for battery, heatsink etc. It's a minor save, but smartphones are some of the most volume-dependent devices, and marginal benefits can be high. i.e. most users may swing around say 4 hours of screen on-time, and get frustrated with 3.8h of capacity. Small increases can push them over the contentness-edge. I'm very much reaching here, it's not a very compelling argument imo, but there's some benefit there nonetheless. 2. So apparently I'm the edge case who never charges while listening, it's just not a thing for me. I charge once, at night, and it's fine. (Galaxy S7). In a car I'm happy with my phone's speakers or a wireless setup, and in newer cars especially a usb-audio or bluetooth audio setup shouldn't be a problem. (ignoring obvious transition issues). And especially here, in a private, safe, storage area like a car is, I'm okay (obviously not thrilled) to buy and one-time mount a $25 dongle. Not the end of the world for me. Same with my fixed office space, and that's about all big usecases I can think of. 3. Completely agree, however it must be noted that stuff like this pushes wireless audio quality forward. There's suddenly a forced market demand when the port drops, which opens up industry incentives to push wireless price/performance ratio improvements which I feel are around the corner (and partially announced already). And tech wise a lot more is possible than the quality we've had in the past years. And price wise, a LOT more should be possible than the past few years of price points. Also I'm expecting Apple (let's not forget, a producer of custom earbuds for years, and buyer of Beats) to drop decent wireless tech, too. I want good wireless audio tech regardless of whether I'm forced to use it lacking a port or not. (!) Again, obvious transition issues but it's alright. 4. Rumours are hey're looking to reinvent their base model with oled screens, no home button, edge to edge screen, delayed to 2017. i.e. a move away from a phone that has ports and buttons, towards a device that's completely digital, mostly screen and almost fully wireless. And I think that makes a lot of sense, stylistically too, if rumours are true and they can pull it off. That can reinvigorate sales, because let's be fair, the iPhone 6 was 'good enough', kind of like the Nexus 5 (still a lovely phone I'd happily use) was for the mid-section, the 6 was at the top-end of the market. I've got lots of friends with a 6 who just don't care for iterations. Something radical is needed to get them to buy, and dropping this port long-term as part of the 10y iPhone anniversary update is part of that narrative. Lots of speculation here of course, just thinking out loud to try and discuss your questions.