5 ms·

I'd be completely comfortable for replacing it with USB-C. You already have the port, it's an industry standard, it's de facto open to use for anyone. It's smal

I'd be completely comfortable for replacing it with USB-C. You already have the port, it's an industry standard, it's de facto open to use for anyone. It's smaller, both in terms of thickness (which I don't care much about by now, but I'll grant it's a thing), as well as volume. What concerns me is that the most popular phone and probably listening device in the world, will move towards a proprietary sound system, fragmenting the headphone and speaker market into two worlds. That just sucks, and it feels like a major nuisance for an entire industry. It's like some worldwide government just created a law half the world or industry must use one standard and the other half the other, it's just shit. Further, tinfoil-hat time, but I think some sense to this fear. A lot of people have voiced concerns that one can employ all kinds of DRM/licensing tricks, now that there's full control on the i/o. You can for example only allow a certain level of bass on headphones that have a license with Apple. I think these effects will be very limited, but I also think they'll all be tiny steps in the wrong direction we really don't need. In short, I'd be fine with a new standard, but not the lightning port, and have a substantial concern about a minor (imo) probability that a digital io leads to walled audio gardens.

ghshephard 10y ago
I came here to say just this, but you captured every though I had, and better. USB-C finally has the chance to be the universal adapter for "phone sized" devices (there will probably have to be a micro-USB C for things that are tinier) - and if Apple really wanted to show courage/leadership, they would replace their lightning ports with a standard that every device in the world is moving to. I'd have no problem with USB-C headphones.
- gambiting 10y ago
  I do - you now can't charge your phone and listen to music at the same time, unless you have some weird Y-splitter-type cable. Can we have two usb-c ports on phones?
  - trowawee 10y ago
    This is a thing that was concerning me. One port means I am either charging or listening to music, never both (at least, not with good headphones).
  - ghshephard 10y ago
    Agreed, we leave that behind - for those people for whom it's important, they either need to buy a powerbank/charger with two USB-C connections, with chaining enabled or, as you indicated, use a Y-Splitter. I wonder if Apple already knows what % of their users listen and recharge at the same time. If it's a small percentage, Apple has always been willing to leave behind that use case, in pursuit of a "purer" product. I just wish the pure product used a universal standard.
  - arthurfm 10y ago
    > you now can't charge your phone and listen to music at the same time, unless you have some weird Y-splitter-type cable Rather than have a splitter cable, couldn't you have an additional USB-C port on the headphones which could be used to power the smartphone indirectly? If that's not possible I reckon some manufacturers will start putting small batteries in USB-C headphones.
    - danblick 10y ago
      I think you just suggested running a power line around my head?
- falcolas 10y ago
  > I'd have no problem with USB-C headphones. I would. Can you imagine how terrible the sound would be for 90% of the headphone market? We have all of these manufacturers racing to the bottom of the headphone market, offering crappy speakers and microphones for $50. Now we expect them to also include an amp and DAC? The least expensive, decent headphone USB DAC that I've personally used was already over $70, and it's about the size of an Altoids tin. There's not a trivial amount of additional circuitry to handle the data and power requirements. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm not really interested in buying yet another dongle for my phone so I can use decent headphones (that I already own) with it. I thought the goal was to reduce the size of phones.
  - phil21 10y ago
    Why does everyone keep saying you need a DAC? That's an option, the other option is simply using the physical connector for an old-school analog audio connection. If the concern is device manufacturers won't support USB-C analog audio that's one thing, but pretending like it isn't the (current) intention to utilize is quite strange to me. This is quite literally changing a round plug to a oval one if implemented properly and to the spec.
    - sethhochberg 10y ago
      Many people don't trust that it will be "implemented properly and to the spec". Even look at something like Displayport on Macbooks - the hardware chosen and standard used is functionally capable of spec'd features like passthrough, and this even works on non-stock operating systems, but Apple simply refuses to implement them in their drivers. Digital, analog, or both... I don't want to have to worry about the parts of the spec implemented on my specific device's connector. Stereo audio is not complicated stuff and shouldn't be made to be that way.
    - falcolas 10y ago
      So, correct me if I'm missing something (there's precious little documentation out there), but attempts to standardize support for analog audio over USB C using the sideband pins [1] is still fairly new, and perhaps most importantly, not required by any USB specification but the cable/port specification [2]. From this, I assume that audio accessory support is unlikely to be implemented by all USB chip manufacturers, so attempting to use it as any kind of standard would fall flat on it's face. Whereas any USB C port will support USB communication, making a DAC interface an obvious one. [1] http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-usb-typec-cables-to-connect-headsets-to-mobile-devices http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-us... [2] "Accessory Mode support by phones/notebooks aren’t mandatory, so consumers will need to read the fine print on their new electronic device to determine if audio over USB Type-C is supported or not." http://electronicdesign.com/interconnects/usb-type-c-unplugged http://electronicdesign.com/interconnects/usb-type-c-unplugg...
shanemhansen 10y ago
I already use my phone's charging port for charging. I'd find it very annoying if I couldn't charge and listen to music at the same time (without buying some sort of USBC hub).
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  I had a tiny mp3 player for my car, with an audio out and a usb charging port. It still couldn't charge and play at the same time. I was pretty upset after buying a cigarette lighter - USB adapter for it.
  - mark-r 10y ago
    The first time I tried playing a device into the car radio, I had a bad experience - it was noisy to the point of being unlistenable. Later I discovered it was because I was charging it at the same time, unplug the charger and all was well.
- IkmoIkmo 10y ago
  Is it reasonable to say the vast majority of people simply do not sit next to a charger with the headphones in, more than once a year? I'd think so. I've literally never done it myself. I appreciate there are edge cases and that it's a tricky decision, but getting 5% of a phone's volume/thickness back for a port <5% of people use less than 5% of the time, I think makes sense. (pulling numbers from my ass here but it's probably not that far off) Further I think the majority of charge & listen usecases are those where dongles aren't horrible. (although they'll always suck). i.e., listening to music while charging in a car, is a specific use case where dropping $25-50 on a one-time solution is somewhat reasonable for the edgecase user who does that every single day. Same with a setup at work where you've got a headphone on and charge because you're a heavy user or forgot to plug it in before bedtime the night before. These are non-mobile situations in known/safe areas, where you can just leave the dongle. Which is a bit different from the dongle experience one has with say a Macbook which is charged during the day, on the go, in many different locations etc. Despite the fact I think it makes sense for the majority, I'll grant it's still a shitty situation for the minority. But even then, I think the ubiquitous advent of wireless audio is around the corner. We've seen big gains in quality of connectivity, range, price level, battery, style and comfort. And we're now seeing some pretty unique innovations too like swiping your earbud to silence the room. I'm not a big fan yet, but I think it's a very decent extra solution to some of these issues. Overal, I'm quite alright, even in favour to see the port get dropped, if it was usb-c all the way.
Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
The iPhone is definitely not the most popular phone in the world. Its market share is about 15%.
- IkmoIkmo 10y ago
  Which phone has more? Smartphone only, I think is fair to say in this context. I'm not talking about iOS or e.g. an umbrella brand of tens of different phones, but a specific device.
  - toomanybeersies 10y ago
    Samsung, depending on how you define a specific device.
  - ac29 10y ago
    Samsung has quite a bit higher smartphone marketshare than Apple [0]. I wouldnt be surprised if Apple has the highest single device marketshare, but they also offer less products than Samsung. [0]https://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-market-share.jsp https://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-market-share.jsp

ghshephard 10y ago

I came here to say just this, but you captured every though I had, and better. USB-C finally has the chance to be the universal adapter for "phone sized" devices (there will probably have to be a micro-USB C for things that are tinier) - and if Apple really wanted to show courage/leadership, they would replace their lightning ports with a standard that every device in the world is moving to. I'd have no problem with USB-C headphones.

gambiting 10y ago
I do - you now can't charge your phone and listen to music at the same time, unless you have some weird Y-splitter-type cable. Can we have two usb-c ports on phones?
- trowawee 10y ago
  This is a thing that was concerning me. One port means I am either charging or listening to music, never both (at least, not with good headphones).
- ghshephard 10y ago
  Agreed, we leave that behind - for those people for whom it's important, they either need to buy a powerbank/charger with two USB-C connections, with chaining enabled or, as you indicated, use a Y-Splitter. I wonder if Apple already knows what % of their users listen and recharge at the same time. If it's a small percentage, Apple has always been willing to leave behind that use case, in pursuit of a "purer" product. I just wish the pure product used a universal standard.
- arthurfm 10y ago
  > you now can't charge your phone and listen to music at the same time, unless you have some weird Y-splitter-type cable Rather than have a splitter cable, couldn't you have an additional USB-C port on the headphones which could be used to power the smartphone indirectly? If that's not possible I reckon some manufacturers will start putting small batteries in USB-C headphones.
  - danblick 10y ago
    I think you just suggested running a power line around my head?
falcolas 10y ago
> I'd have no problem with USB-C headphones. I would. Can you imagine how terrible the sound would be for 90% of the headphone market? We have all of these manufacturers racing to the bottom of the headphone market, offering crappy speakers and microphones for $50. Now we expect them to also include an amp and DAC? The least expensive, decent headphone USB DAC that I've personally used was already over $70, and it's about the size of an Altoids tin. There's not a trivial amount of additional circuitry to handle the data and power requirements. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm not really interested in buying yet another dongle for my phone so I can use decent headphones (that I already own) with it. I thought the goal was to reduce the size of phones.
- phil21 10y ago
  Why does everyone keep saying you need a DAC? That's an option, the other option is simply using the physical connector for an old-school analog audio connection. If the concern is device manufacturers won't support USB-C analog audio that's one thing, but pretending like it isn't the (current) intention to utilize is quite strange to me. This is quite literally changing a round plug to a oval one if implemented properly and to the spec.
  - sethhochberg 10y ago
    Many people don't trust that it will be "implemented properly and to the spec". Even look at something like Displayport on Macbooks - the hardware chosen and standard used is functionally capable of spec'd features like passthrough, and this even works on non-stock operating systems, but Apple simply refuses to implement them in their drivers. Digital, analog, or both... I don't want to have to worry about the parts of the spec implemented on my specific device's connector. Stereo audio is not complicated stuff and shouldn't be made to be that way.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    So, correct me if I'm missing something (there's precious little documentation out there), but attempts to standardize support for analog audio over USB C using the sideband pins [1] is still fairly new, and perhaps most importantly, not required by any USB specification but the cable/port specification [2]. From this, I assume that audio accessory support is unlikely to be implemented by all USB chip manufacturers, so attempting to use it as any kind of standard would fall flat on it's face. Whereas any USB C port will support USB communication, making a DAC interface an obvious one. [1] http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-usb-typec-cables-to-connect-headsets-to-mobile-devices http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-us... [2] "Accessory Mode support by phones/notebooks aren’t mandatory, so consumers will need to read the fine print on their new electronic device to determine if audio over USB Type-C is supported or not." http://electronicdesign.com/interconnects/usb-type-c-unplugged http://electronicdesign.com/interconnects/usb-type-c-unplugg...

shanemhansen 10y ago

I already use my phone's charging port for charging. I'd find it very annoying if I couldn't charge and listen to music at the same time (without buying some sort of USBC hub).

thaumasiotes 10y ago
I had a tiny mp3 player for my car, with an audio out and a usb charging port. It still couldn't charge and play at the same time. I was pretty upset after buying a cigarette lighter - USB adapter for it.
- mark-r 10y ago
  The first time I tried playing a device into the car radio, I had a bad experience - it was noisy to the point of being unlistenable. Later I discovered it was because I was charging it at the same time, unplug the charger and all was well.
IkmoIkmo 10y ago
Is it reasonable to say the vast majority of people simply do not sit next to a charger with the headphones in, more than once a year? I'd think so. I've literally never done it myself. I appreciate there are edge cases and that it's a tricky decision, but getting 5% of a phone's volume/thickness back for a port <5% of people use less than 5% of the time, I think makes sense. (pulling numbers from my ass here but it's probably not that far off) Further I think the majority of charge & listen usecases are those where dongles aren't horrible. (although they'll always suck). i.e., listening to music while charging in a car, is a specific use case where dropping $25-50 on a one-time solution is somewhat reasonable for the edgecase user who does that every single day. Same with a setup at work where you've got a headphone on and charge because you're a heavy user or forgot to plug it in before bedtime the night before. These are non-mobile situations in known/safe areas, where you can just leave the dongle. Which is a bit different from the dongle experience one has with say a Macbook which is charged during the day, on the go, in many different locations etc. Despite the fact I think it makes sense for the majority, I'll grant it's still a shitty situation for the minority. But even then, I think the ubiquitous advent of wireless audio is around the corner. We've seen big gains in quality of connectivity, range, price level, battery, style and comfort. And we're now seeing some pretty unique innovations too like swiping your earbud to silence the room. I'm not a big fan yet, but I think it's a very decent extra solution to some of these issues. Overal, I'm quite alright, even in favour to see the port get dropped, if it was usb-c all the way.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago

The iPhone is definitely not the most popular phone in the world. Its market share is about 15%.

IkmoIkmo 10y ago
Which phone has more? Smartphone only, I think is fair to say in this context. I'm not talking about iOS or e.g. an umbrella brand of tens of different phones, but a specific device.
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  Samsung, depending on how you define a specific device.
- ac29 10y ago
  Samsung has quite a bit higher smartphone marketshare than Apple [0]. I wouldnt be surprised if Apple has the highest single device marketshare, but they also offer less products than Samsung. [0]https://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-market-share.jsp https://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-market-share.jsp