5 ms·

You mean like nobody will force to land a plane carrying a prime minister for example? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.w

by lazyant 10y ago

You mean like nobody will force to land a plane carrying a prime minister for example? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident

sorenjan 10y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snowden, an American citizen, formally charged with a serious crime in the US? Is Assange, not an American citizen, charged with any such crime in the US?
- goldenkey 10y ago
  Snowden should be protected by WPA [1]. Unfortunately, trusting ones' government will follow its' own laws is quite a risk. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act
  - drawnwren 10y ago
    Sorry, you're way off base here. The WPA only protects Whistleblowers who work within the government reporting system. It's not a get out of jail free card for any action you perform under the auspices of 'blowing the whistle.'
    - goldenkey 10y ago
      So let me get this straight. You contact "The Office of Special Counsel [1]" and they contact the FBI/CIA to take you away to an undisclosed location. You are never seen again. I'm just not buying the effectiveness of the formal procedure unless ones' goal is to die in vain.. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Special_Counsel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Specia...
    - calgoo 10y ago
      In this case exactly. For Snowden, there is a reason he was hired as a contractor. The government contractors do not have the WPA protection that their fellow government works do.
    - mcv 10y ago
      And that might make sense if the government reporting system worked. The Thomas Drake case shows that it doesn't. Thomas Drake and some other government whistleblowers agree that Snowden did the only thing he could.
- arviewer 10y ago
  That may be reason to force the plane to land when over US territories, but not in the EU. It's the EU who is at fault here however, for once again showing it has no balls.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    The EU has extradition treaties with the US.
    - jonlucc 10y ago
      Do extradition treaties cover forcing diplomatic planes to land with no evidence aside from rumor that a person of interest is on the plane?
      - goldenkey 10y ago
        Since these extradition treaties are not public record, all we can go on, is events. So apparently, yes.
      - grogenaut 10y ago
        From what I remember Assanged attempted to get diplomatic license (become a diplomat for, don't know the technical term) from Ecuador but did not. There he can't get in a car and none of that stops the cops from setting up a large traffic jam till said car runs out of gas and assange has to walk. I'm not sure if there is diplomatic immunity for a tow truck.
        Crespyl 10y ago
        The image of Assange trapped in an out-of-gas diplomatic car, being towed behind a beat up truck driven by a very amused blue-collar driver on the way to the airport sounds rather like something from a Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett novel.
- junto 10y ago
  Whilst he hasn't yet been charged in the US, it is rumoured that there is a sealed indictment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#U.S._criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#U.S._criminal_i...
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Assange is not currently charged with a crime, but there are a few reasons not to give weight to that. First, there are claims of a sealed indictment. Second, Dianne Feinstein and other similarly influential people have called for charges. And third, they have reason to delay those charges: laying them now would make extradition harder, as compared to extraditing for a subpoena and then bringing charges. The result is that he's not charged (which could make things like grounding planes harder) but I don't know anyone who seriously believes he wouldn't be charged if he showed up in the US tomorrow.
- hackuser 10y ago
  Whether the charges are currently filed isn't important; they always can file the charges later. The U.S. has claimed the right to kidnap people off the street, detain them indefinitely, or kill them as it deems necessary. I'd be very surprised if any of those tactics would be used on Assange, but in that context pressuring/asking another country to deport him to the U.S. to face charges seems within the realm of possibility. If you were Assange, would you want to gamble life in prison on your odds, whatever they are?
  - toomanybeersies 10y ago
    I would if I really stood for what I believed in and wanted to prove that the US government was really as bad as I say it was. So if I was Assange, yes I would.
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      Then maybe you're just worried about disappearing, or "killing yourself."
    - woodman 10y ago
      Martyrdom... the dumbest way to measure the correctness of one's argument.
    - veidr 10y ago
      You embarrass yourself. Should the people who figured out that asbestos caused cancer have proved it by inhaling asbestos dust on camera, and then contracting cancer? If you were one of them, would you do that?
  - bjourne 10y ago
    That doesn't make sense because he was walking around freely in Sweden and was not afraid of being extradited before the rape allegations. If the US wanted to, they could have asked any allied or friendly nation to arrest and extradite him many years earlier.
- meric 10y ago
  No, Snowden is not a U.S. citizen. He has not be charged with a crime in the U.S.
  - _acme 10y ago
    Do you have any support for these assertions? The wikipedia entry for Snowden clearly seems to indicate that he is a US citizen and that he has been charged with crimes in the US.
    - meric 10y ago
      I think I mixed up Snowden and Assange when I wrote that late last night. Sorry HN.
notahacker 10y ago
Frankly this one remains unproven at best: all we know for sure is that the plane landed after its pilot cited fuel issues at a time when memos were circulating reminding border controls that Snowden was a wanted fugitive. Edit: downvoters are welcome to prove me wrong by providing evidence to the contrary. We've no more reason to believe Morales is telling the truth than any of the alleged conspirators, particularly not when his own account is contradicted by the hard evidence of what the pilot said before landing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03...
- veidr 10y ago
  Perhaps there were legitimate fuel-gauge issues, perhaps not. That's disputable, and we will never know the truth. However, the fact that multiple US-allied nations denied that plane entry into their airspace isn't in dispute: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

by lazyant 10y ago

sorenjan 10y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snowden, an American citizen, formally charged with a serious crime in the US? Is Assange, not an American citizen, charged with any such crime in the US?

goldenkey 10y ago
Snowden should be protected by WPA [1]. Unfortunately, trusting ones' government will follow its' own laws is quite a risk. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act
- drawnwren 10y ago
  Sorry, you're way off base here. The WPA only protects Whistleblowers who work within the government reporting system. It's not a get out of jail free card for any action you perform under the auspices of 'blowing the whistle.'
  - goldenkey 10y ago
    So let me get this straight. You contact "The Office of Special Counsel [1]" and they contact the FBI/CIA to take you away to an undisclosed location. You are never seen again. I'm just not buying the effectiveness of the formal procedure unless ones' goal is to die in vain.. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Special_Counsel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Specia...
  - calgoo 10y ago
    In this case exactly. For Snowden, there is a reason he was hired as a contractor. The government contractors do not have the WPA protection that their fellow government works do.
  - mcv 10y ago
    And that might make sense if the government reporting system worked. The Thomas Drake case shows that it doesn't. Thomas Drake and some other government whistleblowers agree that Snowden did the only thing he could.
arviewer 10y ago
That may be reason to force the plane to land when over US territories, but not in the EU. It's the EU who is at fault here however, for once again showing it has no balls.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  The EU has extradition treaties with the US.
  - jonlucc 10y ago
    Do extradition treaties cover forcing diplomatic planes to land with no evidence aside from rumor that a person of interest is on the plane?
    - goldenkey 10y ago
      Since these extradition treaties are not public record, all we can go on, is events. So apparently, yes.
    - grogenaut 10y ago
      From what I remember Assanged attempted to get diplomatic license (become a diplomat for, don't know the technical term) from Ecuador but did not. There he can't get in a car and none of that stops the cops from setting up a large traffic jam till said car runs out of gas and assange has to walk. I'm not sure if there is diplomatic immunity for a tow truck.
      - Crespyl 10y ago
        The image of Assange trapped in an out-of-gas diplomatic car, being towed behind a beat up truck driven by a very amused blue-collar driver on the way to the airport sounds rather like something from a Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett novel.
junto 10y ago
Whilst he hasn't yet been charged in the US, it is rumoured that there is a sealed indictment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#U.S._criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#U.S._criminal_i...
Bartweiss 10y ago
Assange is not currently charged with a crime, but there are a few reasons not to give weight to that. First, there are claims of a sealed indictment. Second, Dianne Feinstein and other similarly influential people have called for charges. And third, they have reason to delay those charges: laying them now would make extradition harder, as compared to extraditing for a subpoena and then bringing charges. The result is that he's not charged (which could make things like grounding planes harder) but I don't know anyone who seriously believes he wouldn't be charged if he showed up in the US tomorrow.
hackuser 10y ago
Whether the charges are currently filed isn't important; they always can file the charges later. The U.S. has claimed the right to kidnap people off the street, detain them indefinitely, or kill them as it deems necessary. I'd be very surprised if any of those tactics would be used on Assange, but in that context pressuring/asking another country to deport him to the U.S. to face charges seems within the realm of possibility. If you were Assange, would you want to gamble life in prison on your odds, whatever they are?
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  I would if I really stood for what I believed in and wanted to prove that the US government was really as bad as I say it was. So if I was Assange, yes I would.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    Then maybe you're just worried about disappearing, or "killing yourself."
  - woodman 10y ago
    Martyrdom... the dumbest way to measure the correctness of one's argument.
  - veidr 10y ago
    You embarrass yourself. Should the people who figured out that asbestos caused cancer have proved it by inhaling asbestos dust on camera, and then contracting cancer? If you were one of them, would you do that?
- bjourne 10y ago
  That doesn't make sense because he was walking around freely in Sweden and was not afraid of being extradited before the rape allegations. If the US wanted to, they could have asked any allied or friendly nation to arrest and extradite him many years earlier.
meric 10y ago
No, Snowden is not a U.S. citizen. He has not be charged with a crime in the U.S.
- _acme 10y ago
  Do you have any support for these assertions? The wikipedia entry for Snowden clearly seems to indicate that he is a US citizen and that he has been charged with crimes in the US.
  - meric 10y ago
    I think I mixed up Snowden and Assange when I wrote that late last night. Sorry HN.

notahacker 10y ago

Frankly this one remains unproven at best: all we know for sure is that the plane landed after its pilot cited fuel issues at a time when memos were circulating reminding border controls that Snowden was a wanted fugitive. Edit: downvoters are welcome to prove me wrong by providing evidence to the contrary. We've no more reason to believe Morales is telling the truth than any of the alleged conspirators, particularly not when his own account is contradicted by the hard evidence of what the pilot said before landing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03...

veidr 10y ago
Perhaps there were legitimate fuel-gauge issues, perhaps not. That's disputable, and we will never know the truth. However, the fact that multiple US-allied nations denied that plane entry into their airspace isn't in dispute: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874