8 ms·

> If you buy your honey from the supermarket, that little plastic bottle of golden nectar has been heated, strained and processed so that it contains zero parti

by annnnd 10y ago

> If you buy your honey from the supermarket, that little plastic bottle of golden nectar has been heated, strained and processed so that it contains zero particulates, meaning that there’s nothing in the liquid for molecules to crystallize on, and your supermarket honey will look the same for almost forever. If you buy your honey from a small-scale vendor, however, certain particulates might remain, from pollen to enzymes. With these particulates, the honey might crystallize, but don’t worry–if it’s sealed, it’s not spoiled and won’t be for quite some time. I heard a different story. If you add sugar to honey (which some vendors, small and especially large, do) then it won't crystallize. There might be other reasons for honey being always in liquid state (linked article talks about filtering), but I am quite sure that small vendors in my area don't use special filtering methods - more likely they add sugar to make extra money. Am I off the track to be always looking for honey that crystallizes?

mrweasel 10y ago
>more likely they add sugar to make extra money That's actually illegal to sell as honey in many countries. It's known as "false honey" here, it's typically something Chinese producers will do. Either that or just have the bees convert sugar water to "honey". It's also the reason why local and smaller bee-keepers (like myself) aren't having any problems selling our honey. I have more people wanting to buy my honey than I can supply, because they trust that what I sell or give them is real honey. How liquid the honey is, is mostly down to the flowers the bees visited. Rape seed honey will crystallise in the hive, if you don't extract it quickly enough. The flowers in my neighbourhood will yield honey that pretty much refuses to crystallise. Interestingly enough, due to Danish regulations, the minute I put honey in a jar to sell, it's required to have an expiration date 1 year and 6 months into the future.
- eru 10y ago
  But of course, customers are free to disregard that date, I assume?
  - krzrak 10y ago
    Yes, but you are not able to sell it when it's past the due date (but this may be not a problem for mrweasel).
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    There's two kinds of expiration date. There's the "this product may not be sold (and should probably not be used) after this date) which for example applies to minced meat and other perishable goods that spoil in dangerous ways. Be super-careful if you use products of that kind after the date. (Verfallsdatum in german) Then there's the "best before" date which is the date that the vendor guarantees that the product tastes and behaves as expected. After that date, self-raising flour may not raise as expected and you'll get a brick instead of a cake. Or condiments may not add any taste, leaving you with a bland mass of meat instead of a spicy chili. (Mindesthaltbarkeitsdatum in german) You as a customer are free to disregard both kinds of expiry dates, the difference is that the first kind indicates a danger to your health, while the second kind mostly indicates a danger to the taste and texture of your food.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      I know there is a push to change EU regulations to allow longer "best before" dates on foods we know keep "indefinitely" like honey or canned goods, or to allow businesses to sell these past the "best before" date. But the food industry is obviously opposed to such change, and it's easy for them to pull the "we care about customer safety" card. Incidentally, I remember my granddad had these really old (like 1970s) bottles of food coloring in his kitchen. They were actually marked "Shelf life: unlimited".
      - Xylakant 10y ago
        I can't talk about the EU level, but in Germany merchands can legally sell goods that exceeded the Mindesthaltbarkeitsdatum (best before) if they're certain that the goods are not dangerous. So they could sell honey past the date. Food (or medication for that matter) that has reached the Verfallsdatum (expiry date) can't be sold. The best before date on canned goods is more of an indicator that the beans haven't fallen apart completely or the peach still tastes somewhat like peach. I somewhat doubt that canned goods are the primary driver of food waste on a distribution-chain level. They're usually good for a couple of years, any supermarket that can't sell its stock of canned beans in that time frame will go out of business.
- Bromskloss 10y ago
  > I have more people wanting to buy my honey than I can supply Isn't that a question of price?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Changing the price so that you're 1-1 with supply and demand is not usually the most wise thing to do. There's price elasticity complications, etc. A price hike can: (a) alienate and drive away existing customers, (b) not replace them with new ones (because you suddenly play in another price league where are established "expensive" products there) (c) make the product seem to be priced ridiculously for what it is, and thus drive off most potential customers, even if demand at the lower price level was strong.
    - moron4hire 10y ago
      ... that's the whole point. You want demand to drop, because you don't have the supply to match it. Demand outstripping supply is lost revenue.
      - igk 10y ago
        Or you know, this is him making a living (I assume) of providing a good at a certain price, which allows everyone in his community who buys it right now to enjoy it. They know and trust him and are willing (I assume) to pay a little extra for that. If everybody is already happy, there is not really a point in and of itself to imagine how you could squeeze even more out of people. Not everything needs to be ruthless capitalism to work
        moron4hire 10y ago
        You have it exactly backwards. People willingly paying for a good means they are happy with the purchase, and just as many people will be happy at the higher price if he's still selling out every week. It's not "ruthless capitalism", it's protecting your supply and communicating the correct value. If prices get high enough, it will attract other people to become honey producers, increasing the supply and making more people happy. By keeping prices low, artificial scarcity is created, which is a harm to consumers.
- annnnd 10y ago
  Interesting, didn't know the flowers' type would affect honey crystallization. The problem I see is that there is not much regulation and inspection going on with smaller bee-keepers. Which is great on one side, because you have many hobbyists who take pride in what they do and produce really great honey - but on the other hand it makes one wonder why some of the honey doesn't crystallize. I guess I will not be so fast to judge then. :-) Thanks!
  - louthy 10y ago
    The type of flower can have very, very different end results! [1] "The red honey is prized for its purported medicinal value and intoxicating qualities which are attributed to the grayanotoxin present in the nectar collected from white rhododendrons (Rhododendron spp). The Gurung people in Nepal are renowned for their use of this mad honey, both for its medicinal and hallucinogenic properties." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_dorsata_laboriosa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_dorsata_laboriosa
  - beagle3 10y ago
    It affects everything. The flavors of (say) avocado-flower honey and citrus-flower honey are so different, that you might not recognize avocado honey as honey if you're not used to it.
    - thomnottom 10y ago
      Wow, I've never heard of avocado-flower honey. What kind of flavor does it have?
      - beagle3 10y ago
        More complex, a little less sweet. I don't know how to describe it, except (to paraphrase Douglas Adams), "it is quite, but not entirely, unlike citrus-flower honey."
  - zafka 10y ago
    Here in the states "Tupelo Honey" is quite sought after as it does not crystallize easily and is said to taste quite good. In South Florida, orange blossom honey is another popular type. Bee keepers will put their bees in a grove, and then harvest the honey just as they take the bees out, this way they can certify what type of honey they are selling.
- zafka 10y ago
  Weasel, Would you send me your contact info? (mine is in my profile) I have just started with bees a little over a year ago, and plan to ramp up. I have learned so much in the last year and am excited about all the paths that I can see.
  - ceocoder 10y ago
    My sincere apologies in advance for being completely off topic here, but I'll share this in case someone needs a good chuckle . This is from one of my favorite episodes of Arrested Development "Beef Consomme". http://i.imgur.com/oE8rlAE.gif http://i.imgur.com/oE8rlAE.gif It is entirely impossible for me to not think of this when anyone mentions "Bees".
    - michaelvoz 10y ago
      That gif is so short, it could be a png and lose no value!
  - beardicus 10y ago
    The beekeeping subreddit is pretty good, if you're not on there already. Quite a few smart and experienced folks there, so most of the time you'll get good answers to questions (of course you'll get 6 different good answers each time). I'm in the same boat as you... been beekeeping a year and am trying to split my way to 8-ish hives this year and look for an out yard for more next year.
delsarto 10y ago
This actually discussed in Cooks Illustrated this month (issue 141 pg 28). They say to add a small amount of corn syrup to honey to stop crystalization. To quote some bits "honey crystalizes when moisture evaporates and individual sugar molecules interlock ... corn syrup never crystalizes because it contains fragments of glucose chains" So it seems like adding sugar (sucrose) doesn't do anything to stop crystalizing, but glucose does?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  I think this is correct; small amounts of glucose are generally added to foods where it is important to avoid crystallisation or coarse crystals, like in fudge, caramel, hard candies etc.
SixSigma 10y ago
> If you buy your honey from the supermarket, that little plastic bottle will de-plasticize and crumble to plastic pieces
- jackhack 10y ago
  And meanwhile leach God-knows-what into your otherwise pure food. No thanks. Glass containers for me, please.
outworlder 10y ago
> If you buy your honey from a small-scale vendor, however, certain particulates might remain, from pollen to enzymes. Yes. Which is also a problem for people with allergies. My wife has serious bee (and pollen!) allergies, so having some honey touch her skin is a good test for how "industrialized" the honey actually is.

by annnnd 10y ago

mrweasel 10y ago

>more likely they add sugar to make extra money That's actually illegal to sell as honey in many countries. It's known as "false honey" here, it's typically something Chinese producers will do. Either that or just have the bees convert sugar water to "honey". It's also the reason why local and smaller bee-keepers (like myself) aren't having any problems selling our honey. I have more people wanting to buy my honey than I can supply, because they trust that what I sell or give them is real honey. How liquid the honey is, is mostly down to the flowers the bees visited. Rape seed honey will crystallise in the hive, if you don't extract it quickly enough. The flowers in my neighbourhood will yield honey that pretty much refuses to crystallise. Interestingly enough, due to Danish regulations, the minute I put honey in a jar to sell, it's required to have an expiration date 1 year and 6 months into the future.

eru 10y ago
But of course, customers are free to disregard that date, I assume?
- krzrak 10y ago
  Yes, but you are not able to sell it when it's past the due date (but this may be not a problem for mrweasel).
- Xylakant 10y ago
  There's two kinds of expiration date. There's the "this product may not be sold (and should probably not be used) after this date) which for example applies to minced meat and other perishable goods that spoil in dangerous ways. Be super-careful if you use products of that kind after the date. (Verfallsdatum in german) Then there's the "best before" date which is the date that the vendor guarantees that the product tastes and behaves as expected. After that date, self-raising flour may not raise as expected and you'll get a brick instead of a cake. Or condiments may not add any taste, leaving you with a bland mass of meat instead of a spicy chili. (Mindesthaltbarkeitsdatum in german) You as a customer are free to disregard both kinds of expiry dates, the difference is that the first kind indicates a danger to your health, while the second kind mostly indicates a danger to the taste and texture of your food.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    I know there is a push to change EU regulations to allow longer "best before" dates on foods we know keep "indefinitely" like honey or canned goods, or to allow businesses to sell these past the "best before" date. But the food industry is obviously opposed to such change, and it's easy for them to pull the "we care about customer safety" card. Incidentally, I remember my granddad had these really old (like 1970s) bottles of food coloring in his kitchen. They were actually marked "Shelf life: unlimited".
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      I can't talk about the EU level, but in Germany merchands can legally sell goods that exceeded the Mindesthaltbarkeitsdatum (best before) if they're certain that the goods are not dangerous. So they could sell honey past the date. Food (or medication for that matter) that has reached the Verfallsdatum (expiry date) can't be sold. The best before date on canned goods is more of an indicator that the beans haven't fallen apart completely or the peach still tastes somewhat like peach. I somewhat doubt that canned goods are the primary driver of food waste on a distribution-chain level. They're usually good for a couple of years, any supermarket that can't sell its stock of canned beans in that time frame will go out of business.
Bromskloss 10y ago
> I have more people wanting to buy my honey than I can supply Isn't that a question of price?
- coldtea 10y ago
  Changing the price so that you're 1-1 with supply and demand is not usually the most wise thing to do. There's price elasticity complications, etc. A price hike can: (a) alienate and drive away existing customers, (b) not replace them with new ones (because you suddenly play in another price league where are established "expensive" products there) (c) make the product seem to be priced ridiculously for what it is, and thus drive off most potential customers, even if demand at the lower price level was strong.
  - moron4hire 10y ago
    ... that's the whole point. You want demand to drop, because you don't have the supply to match it. Demand outstripping supply is lost revenue.
    - igk 10y ago
      Or you know, this is him making a living (I assume) of providing a good at a certain price, which allows everyone in his community who buys it right now to enjoy it. They know and trust him and are willing (I assume) to pay a little extra for that. If everybody is already happy, there is not really a point in and of itself to imagine how you could squeeze even more out of people. Not everything needs to be ruthless capitalism to work
      - moron4hire 10y ago
        You have it exactly backwards. People willingly paying for a good means they are happy with the purchase, and just as many people will be happy at the higher price if he's still selling out every week. It's not "ruthless capitalism", it's protecting your supply and communicating the correct value. If prices get high enough, it will attract other people to become honey producers, increasing the supply and making more people happy. By keeping prices low, artificial scarcity is created, which is a harm to consumers.
annnnd 10y ago
Interesting, didn't know the flowers' type would affect honey crystallization. The problem I see is that there is not much regulation and inspection going on with smaller bee-keepers. Which is great on one side, because you have many hobbyists who take pride in what they do and produce really great honey - but on the other hand it makes one wonder why some of the honey doesn't crystallize. I guess I will not be so fast to judge then. :-) Thanks!
- louthy 10y ago
  The type of flower can have very, very different end results! [1] "The red honey is prized for its purported medicinal value and intoxicating qualities which are attributed to the grayanotoxin present in the nectar collected from white rhododendrons (Rhododendron spp). The Gurung people in Nepal are renowned for their use of this mad honey, both for its medicinal and hallucinogenic properties." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_dorsata_laboriosa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_dorsata_laboriosa
- beagle3 10y ago
  It affects everything. The flavors of (say) avocado-flower honey and citrus-flower honey are so different, that you might not recognize avocado honey as honey if you're not used to it.
  - thomnottom 10y ago
    Wow, I've never heard of avocado-flower honey. What kind of flavor does it have?
    - beagle3 10y ago
      More complex, a little less sweet. I don't know how to describe it, except (to paraphrase Douglas Adams), "it is quite, but not entirely, unlike citrus-flower honey."
- zafka 10y ago
  Here in the states "Tupelo Honey" is quite sought after as it does not crystallize easily and is said to taste quite good. In South Florida, orange blossom honey is another popular type. Bee keepers will put their bees in a grove, and then harvest the honey just as they take the bees out, this way they can certify what type of honey they are selling.
zafka 10y ago
Weasel, Would you send me your contact info? (mine is in my profile) I have just started with bees a little over a year ago, and plan to ramp up. I have learned so much in the last year and am excited about all the paths that I can see.
- ceocoder 10y ago
  My sincere apologies in advance for being completely off topic here, but I'll share this in case someone needs a good chuckle . This is from one of my favorite episodes of Arrested Development "Beef Consomme". http://i.imgur.com/oE8rlAE.gif http://i.imgur.com/oE8rlAE.gif It is entirely impossible for me to not think of this when anyone mentions "Bees".
  - michaelvoz 10y ago
    That gif is so short, it could be a png and lose no value!
- beardicus 10y ago
  The beekeeping subreddit is pretty good, if you're not on there already. Quite a few smart and experienced folks there, so most of the time you'll get good answers to questions (of course you'll get 6 different good answers each time). I'm in the same boat as you... been beekeeping a year and am trying to split my way to 8-ish hives this year and look for an out yard for more next year.

delsarto 10y ago

This actually discussed in Cooks Illustrated this month (issue 141 pg 28). They say to add a small amount of corn syrup to honey to stop crystalization. To quote some bits "honey crystalizes when moisture evaporates and individual sugar molecules interlock ... corn syrup never crystalizes because it contains fragments of glucose chains" So it seems like adding sugar (sucrose) doesn't do anything to stop crystalizing, but glucose does?

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
I think this is correct; small amounts of glucose are generally added to foods where it is important to avoid crystallisation or coarse crystals, like in fudge, caramel, hard candies etc.

SixSigma 10y ago

> If you buy your honey from the supermarket, that little plastic bottle will de-plasticize and crumble to plastic pieces

jackhack 10y ago
And meanwhile leach God-knows-what into your otherwise pure food. No thanks. Glass containers for me, please.

outworlder 10y ago

> If you buy your honey from a small-scale vendor, however, certain particulates might remain, from pollen to enzymes. Yes. Which is also a problem for people with allergies. My wife has serious bee (and pollen!) allergies, so having some honey touch her skin is a good test for how "industrialized" the honey actually is.