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> when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window This is so important. Preface: I am not defending Jacob Appelb
by dcposch 10y ago
> when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window
This is so important.
Preface: I am not defending Jacob Appelbaum at all here---the evidence of wrongdoing in his case looks solid.
Encouraging internet pitchfork mobs is wrong. Morally wrong. Due process can be frustratingly slow, but the principle of innocent until proven guilty is vital.
Preemptively labelling people "oppressors" or "abusers" is wrong.
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Story time. The scene is my high school sophomore English class, ~9 years ago. There was a huge news story about some men on Duke lacrosse team hiring a stripper and then raping her. It was the perfect storm of outrage: multiple white men from a privileged background, a single black woman, a rape accusation.
In English class, we debated the ethics of the case, rape culture, and so on.
I pointed out that with no witnesses and no rape kit, the only incriminating evidence was the accuser's word. I said that the accusation might well be true, but that we should reserve judgement until the court case ran its course.
I got a lot of flak for saying that. A few classmates said I was being misogynistic and that I was part of the problem. The teacher lectured me somberly about how much courage it takes to report abuse and how important it is to believe such reports.
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A few months later, the men were acquitted fully and the accuser admitted she had fabricated the whole story.
To this day, if you Google any of the mens' names, the first page is full of national news stories about how they raped someone.
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Here's a picture from a few days ago. Spoiler alert, the arrows point to the wrong apartment.
https://twitter.com/bcrypt/status/741339303356178433 https://twitter.com/bcrypt/status/741339303356178433
- tptacek 10y agoThis is ironic, since yours is a name I know principally from an attempt to whip up an Internet pitchfork mob, concerning a situation you had nothing to do with and know very little about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11724935 (and more on Twitter, of course). Please tell us more about how important this principle is to you. Also, much as I hate to spoil a fun new narrative wave for you to surf, but none of the authors of this post condone vandalizing the homes of people accused of abuse. In fact: you quoted one of the more vocal Appelbaum critics as doing exactly the opposite, while sneakily implying otherwise.
- dcposch 10y agoJust wanted to give some context. Here, I'll link directly to the thread you're talking about, so people can judge for themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11726188
- tptacek 10y agoUh huh. https://twitter.com/dcposch/status/707069168852410368 https://twitter.com/dcposch/status/707069168852410368 I'm not saying you succeeded in creating a pitchfork mob, just that your attempts to do so were cartoonish, and so it's pretty funny to learn you've found religion about pitchforks now. I would wrap this up by saying: things are complicated, they're often complicated in every possible direction, we usually don't have all the facts (you sure didn't), and we are rarely well served by platitudes. For example: the reason you believe the evidence against Appelbaum appears solid is that people spoke up.
- dcposch 10y agoYep. Here's the full conversation again, it starts with this tweet: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/705825790529662976 https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/705825790529662976 That was rude, unkind and you shouldn't have posted it. Happy to have people read both the Twitter thread and the one on HN, I think I said things that were worth, if you'll pardon the phrase, speaking up about.
- tptacek 10y agoI feel bad about it. Specifically: I feel bad that I didn't come up with it. It was funny! Instead, I ended up subjecting someone else to the shitstorm you and Nadim briefly generated. Just weeks ago, you were on HN --- unbidden! --- to inform everyone that I'd been "joking about Nadim's penis". You two deserve each other. I'm going to bow out of this part of the thread before we start litigating a different monster in the security/privacy community.
- 10y ago