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I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a mis

I am pretty surprised by the general lack luster comments bordering on negativity here. Personally, I think it is great to see a major retailer take even a misguided stab at improving child tech education which has quickly fallen behind demand (in America). Do I think the approach is more than a little bit wrong? Sure, GUI programming a non-useful task wouldn't be my choice. Would I prefer a more robust longer-term program? Absolutely. Does this fall well short of actually being useful/addressing the original problem? More than likely. But despite of all that, I would much rather have Apple try this and hopefully improve on the offering pending demonstrated interest than not have it at all.

jshevek 10y ago
For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that: > Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served. I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    > I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for. Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of. [1] > launching their own coding camps I think what apple is doing right now is 'mostly harmless'. The strategy is flawed and antisocial, but the reach and impact is minimal. However, if all the major players started competing in this area, I think it could quickly became a significant net loss for our society. Established for profit tech corporations with eco-system oriented agendas are not well suited for the role of designing or choosing educational programs for our youth, their self interest is too narrow and all consuming. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-190k-diversify-male-dominated-tech-industry-article-1.1928682 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-...
    - hk__2 10y ago
      > Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of Also don’t forget things like the Google Summer of Code: $6k per student x 1000 students x 11 years = $66M so far.
      - jshevek 10y ago
        Yes, and that raises questions for me about Google's bias in the summer of code. Obviously, apple has a massive culture of extreme bias from top to bottom. I'd be curious to know if Google supports projects that benefit the ecosystems of competitors.
        ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Google and Microsoft have been working together on TypeScript since Google decided on TS for Angular2, https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/05/microsoft-and-google-collaborate-on-typescript-hell-has-not-frozen-over-yet/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/05/microsoft-and-google-colla...
  - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
    Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella. “We can’t leave anyone out. We’re proud to make this $75 million investment in computer science education to create new opportunities for students across the spectrum of diverse youth and help build a tech talent pipeline that will spark new innovations for the future.” http://news.microsoft.com/2015/09/16/microsoft-expands-global-youthspark-initiative-to-focus-on-computer-science/#sm.001xnem0z17f3dgovep2bih1mv3l7 http://news.microsoft.com/2015/09/16/microsoft-expands-globa...
  - soundoflight 10y ago
    Microsoft already does this at their stores with YouthSpark. https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/youthsparkhub/programs/yscamps/ https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/yo...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- mythz 10y ago
  I don't see this as a PR stunt at all, this goes to one of Apple's core values. Apple's very good at marketing, if this were a PR stunt they would have large brand building ads and little substance, whereas this initiative requires a lot of resources, logistics and investments to run and are offering it for free. Since Tim took over Apple's been doing a lot more towards "We want to leave the world better than we found it". Eventually I expect it will be good for Apple's bottom line long-term, but this follows their theme (e.g. Swift playgrounds, WWDC Scholarships) of helping teach more kids how to code. Personally I think Apple wants to attract students, because they prefer that demographic. There would be a lot more money to be made going after Enterprise wallets than spending it on free programs for cash-poor students. Basically under Tim's leadership I'm expecting Apple to invest a lot in: Green Energy, Kids Education, Privacy, Diversity. Not because it's good for their bottom line, but because they think it's the right thing to do.
  - CPLX 10y ago
    Perhaps add privacy to that list as well. Hopefully.
    - mythz 10y ago
      Updated, thx. Yeah that's definitely one of their core values.
  - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
    > Not because it's good for their bottom line, but because they think it's the right thing to do. I agree with the op but want to take this one step further. When you're apple's size, perhaps what's good IS good for your bottom line, in the long term. Can you really grow a company when most people are too poor to afford your products? No, you really can't. Will apple do better if there are many more people with disposable income enough to buy more apple products? I think so. Maybe spending money on education and fixing the environment are necessary for them if they want to keep growing. I'm not saying this to be cynical - i'm saying this because if it's true, it doesn't actually matter whether this is a dollars and cents calculation.
  - 10y ago
- jayd16 10y ago
  Seems very reminiscent of classroom iMacs in the late 90s. Not 100% altruistic but nothing to complain about.
- tamana 10y ago
  Do you know what "those entities" do? They teach Scratch just like Apple's program.
ben_jones 10y ago
Why do I get the feeling that they'll only teach swift (or maybe scratch in order to lead into swift)...
- mythz 10y ago
  I'd expect them to only teach Swift, they're making Swift a great beginners language and are investing heavily in Swift Playgrounds and surrounding learning content resources. Apple's other Obj-C/C/C++ languages are terrible for teaching kids how to program with.
- jernfrost 10y ago
  What is wrong with that? It is a great beginners language and why should Apple not focus on what they know best and which can benefit them in the long run. Is is wrong for a company to think about their own well being? Apple technologies are seldom taught at University. As an iOS developer that has sort of been a blessing as you get in such high demand compared to Android guys since there is so much lower supply of iOS developers. People typically have to learn it on their own while Comp Sci people out of college today seem to typically be familiar with Android. Anyway Java has been a preferred beginner language for many schools and it is a horrible beginners language, so Swift is certainly an advancement.
- IOT_Apprentice 10y ago
  I would hope that they would teach swift as they created it, it runs on all their hardware and it is open source so it also can run on Windows and Linux. And imagine if Google adopts Swift for android as an alternative to Java? Then you have it spanning all major platforms.
lowken10 10y ago
The point is not that kids are going to learn how to program in two 90 minute sessions, rather the point is to spark a kids imagination and maybe that kid decides to explore the subject further. My eight-year-old loves making movies on his iPad using iMovie and I'm so happy that Apple is offering a course.
gdubs 10y ago
I'm reading "Bringing up Bébé" – a book written by an American woman who raises her child in Paris. When they take their toddler girl to swim lessons, everyone is in the pool swimming around together. Occasionally the instructor swims up to them and says, "hello". Eventually, on the third class she finally says, "Excuse me, but when are you going to actually, you know, teach my kid to swim?". The instructor smiles and tells them, "We don't teach toddlers how to swim." She realizes that one cultural difference is that french parents don't expect their kids to learn things super early the way that Americans do – instead, they prefer to 'acclimate' their kids to various activities. Not everyone lives in Silicon Valley where their parents are engineers, their neighbors' parents are engineers, they build drones and fly them in the park... Part of fixing inequality in education is at least acclimating kids to the idea of coding – hopefully sparking an interest that stays with them and grows. Apple has long known that a way to build their customer base is to get them early in schools, so of course this is at least in part commercially motivated. But at the end of the day, companies can do things that help their bottom line and at the same time make a positive cultural impact[1]. Personally, I think we should applaud efforts to acclimate kids to things they might not be aware of, to help make them aware of what's possible in their lives. 1: https://www.gatesnotes.com/media/features/books/Bill_Gates_John_Brooks_Business_Adventures_Review_Xerox_Free_Chapter.pdf https://www.gatesnotes.com/media/features/books/Bill_Gates_J...
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  That's super interesting! I had no idea but definitely worth considering/knowing. Thanks!
- tamana 10y ago
  I had a swim class like that in USA. The French exceptionalism is a tacky gimmick to hang a book off of.

jshevek 10y ago

For me, it has the feeling of being more of a PR stunt than a sincere effort to help education. Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. I would rather Apple donate an equal amount of money to any of those entities out there which help to bring technology to the youth.

gshulegaard 10y ago
While your skepticism is easily justified and I share it, I would just point out that: > Plus, its an opportunity to build brand allegiance at a young age. If this leads to other vendors like Microsoft, Google, etc. launching their own coding camps geared towards youth I think it's a net win and results in competition in an area which is currently under served. I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for.
- jshevek 10y ago
  > I also think it's a little unrealistic to expect a corporation to just throw money at philanthropic endeavors...as nice it might be to think about/wish for. Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of. [1] > launching their own coding camps I think what apple is doing right now is 'mostly harmless'. The strategy is flawed and antisocial, but the reach and impact is minimal. However, if all the major players started competing in this area, I think it could quickly became a significant net loss for our society. Established for profit tech corporations with eco-system oriented agendas are not well suited for the role of designing or choosing educational programs for our youth, their self interest is too narrow and all consuming. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-190k-diversify-male-dominated-tech-industry-article-1.1928682 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/google-donate-...
  - hk__2 10y ago
    > Google gave 190,000 - and possibly much more that I'm unaware of Also don’t forget things like the Google Summer of Code: $6k per student x 1000 students x 11 years = $66M so far.
    - jshevek 10y ago
      Yes, and that raises questions for me about Google's bias in the summer of code. Obviously, apple has a massive culture of extreme bias from top to bottom. I'd be curious to know if Google supports projects that benefit the ecosystems of competitors.
      - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Google and Microsoft have been working together on TypeScript since Google decided on TS for Angular2, https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/05/microsoft-and-google-collaborate-on-typescript-hell-has-not-frozen-over-yet/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/05/microsoft-and-google-colla...
- ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
  Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella. “We can’t leave anyone out. We’re proud to make this $75 million investment in computer science education to create new opportunities for students across the spectrum of diverse youth and help build a tech talent pipeline that will spark new innovations for the future.” http://news.microsoft.com/2015/09/16/microsoft-expands-global-youthspark-initiative-to-focus-on-computer-science/#sm.001xnem0z17f3dgovep2bih1mv3l7 http://news.microsoft.com/2015/09/16/microsoft-expands-globa...
- soundoflight 10y ago
  Microsoft already does this at their stores with YouthSpark. https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/youthsparkhub/programs/yscamps/ https://www.microsoft.com/about/philanthropies/youthspark/yo...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
mythz 10y ago
I don't see this as a PR stunt at all, this goes to one of Apple's core values. Apple's very good at marketing, if this were a PR stunt they would have large brand building ads and little substance, whereas this initiative requires a lot of resources, logistics and investments to run and are offering it for free. Since Tim took over Apple's been doing a lot more towards "We want to leave the world better than we found it". Eventually I expect it will be good for Apple's bottom line long-term, but this follows their theme (e.g. Swift playgrounds, WWDC Scholarships) of helping teach more kids how to code. Personally I think Apple wants to attract students, because they prefer that demographic. There would be a lot more money to be made going after Enterprise wallets than spending it on free programs for cash-poor students. Basically under Tim's leadership I'm expecting Apple to invest a lot in: Green Energy, Kids Education, Privacy, Diversity. Not because it's good for their bottom line, but because they think it's the right thing to do.
- CPLX 10y ago
  Perhaps add privacy to that list as well. Hopefully.
  - mythz 10y ago
    Updated, thx. Yeah that's definitely one of their core values.
- MarkPNeyer 10y ago
  > Not because it's good for their bottom line, but because they think it's the right thing to do. I agree with the op but want to take this one step further. When you're apple's size, perhaps what's good IS good for your bottom line, in the long term. Can you really grow a company when most people are too poor to afford your products? No, you really can't. Will apple do better if there are many more people with disposable income enough to buy more apple products? I think so. Maybe spending money on education and fixing the environment are necessary for them if they want to keep growing. I'm not saying this to be cynical - i'm saying this because if it's true, it doesn't actually matter whether this is a dollars and cents calculation.
- 10y ago
jayd16 10y ago
Seems very reminiscent of classroom iMacs in the late 90s. Not 100% altruistic but nothing to complain about.
tamana 10y ago
Do you know what "those entities" do? They teach Scratch just like Apple's program.

ben_jones 10y ago

Why do I get the feeling that they'll only teach swift (or maybe scratch in order to lead into swift)...

mythz 10y ago
I'd expect them to only teach Swift, they're making Swift a great beginners language and are investing heavily in Swift Playgrounds and surrounding learning content resources. Apple's other Obj-C/C/C++ languages are terrible for teaching kids how to program with.
jernfrost 10y ago
What is wrong with that? It is a great beginners language and why should Apple not focus on what they know best and which can benefit them in the long run. Is is wrong for a company to think about their own well being? Apple technologies are seldom taught at University. As an iOS developer that has sort of been a blessing as you get in such high demand compared to Android guys since there is so much lower supply of iOS developers. People typically have to learn it on their own while Comp Sci people out of college today seem to typically be familiar with Android. Anyway Java has been a preferred beginner language for many schools and it is a horrible beginners language, so Swift is certainly an advancement.
IOT_Apprentice 10y ago
I would hope that they would teach swift as they created it, it runs on all their hardware and it is open source so it also can run on Windows and Linux. And imagine if Google adopts Swift for android as an alternative to Java? Then you have it spanning all major platforms.

lowken10 10y ago

The point is not that kids are going to learn how to program in two 90 minute sessions, rather the point is to spark a kids imagination and maybe that kid decides to explore the subject further. My eight-year-old loves making movies on his iPad using iMovie and I'm so happy that Apple is offering a course.

gdubs 10y ago

I'm reading "Bringing up Bébé" – a book written by an American woman who raises her child in Paris. When they take their toddler girl to swim lessons, everyone is in the pool swimming around together. Occasionally the instructor swims up to them and says, "hello". Eventually, on the third class she finally says, "Excuse me, but when are you going to actually, you know, teach my kid to swim?". The instructor smiles and tells them, "We don't teach toddlers how to swim." She realizes that one cultural difference is that french parents don't expect their kids to learn things super early the way that Americans do – instead, they prefer to 'acclimate' their kids to various activities. Not everyone lives in Silicon Valley where their parents are engineers, their neighbors' parents are engineers, they build drones and fly them in the park... Part of fixing inequality in education is at least acclimating kids to the idea of coding – hopefully sparking an interest that stays with them and grows. Apple has long known that a way to build their customer base is to get them early in schools, so of course this is at least in part commercially motivated. But at the end of the day, companies can do things that help their bottom line and at the same time make a positive cultural impact[1]. Personally, I think we should applaud efforts to acclimate kids to things they might not be aware of, to help make them aware of what's possible in their lives. 1: https://www.gatesnotes.com/media/features/books/Bill_Gates_John_Brooks_Business_Adventures_Review_Xerox_Free_Chapter.pdf https://www.gatesnotes.com/media/features/books/Bill_Gates_J...

gshulegaard 10y ago
That's super interesting! I had no idea but definitely worth considering/knowing. Thanks!
tamana 10y ago
I had a swim class like that in USA. The French exceptionalism is a tacky gimmick to hang a book off of.