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But sitting and waiting for the problem to resolve is also very stupid and leads to learned helplessness. How would rape problem ever get fixed if there are no

But sitting and waiting for the problem to resolve is also very stupid and leads to learned helplessness. How would rape problem ever get fixed if there are no cases and no time served? It's a probiel when crime is blamed on "rape culture" rather on a concrete person. That's like accusing everybody but the perpetrator. Making IT community resolve rape cases instead of specific authorities is counterproductive too. I doubt we're good at it.

srtjstjsj 10y ago
It may be ineffective, but it's not "stupid". Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause. Have you ever had a software system with a bug that only appeared in integration tests, or production environment? Every individual component satisfied its contract tolerably well, or misbehaves but in a way that isn't detectable locally, but the system as a whole has emergent misbehaviors. That's a real problem, not imagined. See also: Tragedy of the Commons, where bad things happen even when no one individual is clearly solely responsible.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  "Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause" That's the problem. That's why our rights, freedoms and safety (real one, not theatrical) are taken from us, bit by bit, and we're unable to do anything. Happens for a decade, slowly but surely, before my eyes. We've got to spend some effort on defense, every one of us. When you have a bug in integration tests, you shuffle your interactions while it gets fixed. When you have Tragedy of the Commons, you rework your social system until there's no more any Tragedy.
danso 10y ago
That's a difficult question to apply to the situation at hand...it seems like a lot of the allegations that are coming out now are workplace-harassment issues and complaints about egregiously creepy/offensive behavior. Between now and the incidents behind these complaints, someone had reported an actual rape, and that may be something that goes to the courts. Sure, the people who experienced Appelbaum's harassing behavior could've spoken up and possibly averted the alleged rape by having him kicked out on the basis of his unpleasant behavior alone. However, it's not easy to get someone kicked out based on allegations of behavior, especially someone as high up as him. I mean, that story of bureaucracy and shit rolling downhill is as old as civilization. And it's not all upside to have an organization where people get kicked out via accusation and internal arbitration alone. Let's assume that some of this abusive behavior warranted official action via the courts (criminal or civil). But those who critique Violet Blue and her allies overlook an obvious problem: if you report a crime to the cops, they now have the authority to get all in your emails and other organization business. Giving Violet Blue and her friends the benefit of the doubt that they are true believers in the Tor project...I find it exceptionally easy to sympathize with how they were able to rationalize not going public about Appelbaum earlier. It's bad enough to cause emotional rift within an organization, no matter how justified...but to risk destroying an organization that you believe is saving lives and protecting freedom...yeah, that's kind of a hard thing to risk taking to court, even for black-and-white crimes.

srtjstjsj 10y ago

It may be ineffective, but it's not "stupid". Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause. Have you ever had a software system with a bug that only appeared in integration tests, or production environment? Every individual component satisfied its contract tolerably well, or misbehaves but in a way that isn't detectable locally, but the system as a whole has emergent misbehaviors. That's a real problem, not imagined. See also: Tragedy of the Commons, where bad things happen even when no one individual is clearly solely responsible.

guard-of-terra 10y ago
"Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause" That's the problem. That's why our rights, freedoms and safety (real one, not theatrical) are taken from us, bit by bit, and we're unable to do anything. Happens for a decade, slowly but surely, before my eyes. We've got to spend some effort on defense, every one of us. When you have a bug in integration tests, you shuffle your interactions while it gets fixed. When you have Tragedy of the Commons, you rework your social system until there's no more any Tragedy.

danso 10y ago

That's a difficult question to apply to the situation at hand...it seems like a lot of the allegations that are coming out now are workplace-harassment issues and complaints about egregiously creepy/offensive behavior. Between now and the incidents behind these complaints, someone had reported an actual rape, and that may be something that goes to the courts. Sure, the people who experienced Appelbaum's harassing behavior could've spoken up and possibly averted the alleged rape by having him kicked out on the basis of his unpleasant behavior alone. However, it's not easy to get someone kicked out based on allegations of behavior, especially someone as high up as him. I mean, that story of bureaucracy and shit rolling downhill is as old as civilization. And it's not all upside to have an organization where people get kicked out via accusation and internal arbitration alone. Let's assume that some of this abusive behavior warranted official action via the courts (criminal or civil). But those who critique Violet Blue and her allies overlook an obvious problem: if you report a crime to the cops, they now have the authority to get all in your emails and other organization business. Giving Violet Blue and her friends the benefit of the doubt that they are true believers in the Tor project...I find it exceptionally easy to sympathize with how they were able to rationalize not going public about Appelbaum earlier. It's bad enough to cause emotional rift within an organization, no matter how justified...but to risk destroying an organization that you believe is saving lives and protecting freedom...yeah, that's kind of a hard thing to risk taking to court, even for black-and-white crimes.