6 ms·

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the b

by mafribe 10y ago

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 10y ago
> What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.
- mafribe 10y ago
  There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Wait, you are arguing the fact that California's criminal statutory rape law has a conclusive presumption that a sexual act but someone under 18 is not voluntary while it's child support laws do not and let that be a question of fact for a court to resolve is "misandry in the harassment laws", and use as your strongest evidence a case where an adult woman was convicted of a felony for what was legally established in the subsequent support case to be, in fact, mutually voluntary intecourse? There's certainly an inconsistency between two laws there, but it's hard to see that as an example of misandry, and, since neither of the laws involved is a harassment law, harder to see it as misandry in the harassment laws.
    - mafribe 10y ago
      You don't think false rape accusations and convictions are an extreme case of harassment?
smoyer 10y ago
I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner. Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress. So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I felt safe admitting that my original sentence contained some stereotypical ideas. And while we're at it, I know plenty of girls and women who could kick my butt - those ladies that fall into that category can feel free to be my knight in shining armor if they see me being harassed. A funny story from my high-school days - our sociology class was assigned to perform an act that fell outside the social norms. I spent a few hours one day opening the doors for anyone who entered our local mall. One woman (who still went through the open door) asked me if my parents would be embarrassed that they'd raised such a male-chauvinist pig. I have no idea where it came from but my response was "They think they've raised a gentleman - if you'd held the door open for me, I only would have said 'Thank you'". Why is it that I often only think of the clever thing to say minutes or hours after the moment has passed?
- mafribe 10y ago
  Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous nuclear families are best for society and also best for the individuals involved. Without conventional families they belive فتنة (Fitna) will rule. Feminists OTOH do so for altogether different reasons, indeed they loath the stable monogamous nuclear families. For reasons that are beyond what can be easily discussed in a HN post, feminists have won this battle for now, and use social conservatives as enforcers, something the latter don't realise because they fundamentally don't understand that they are being taken for a ride. In the long run social conservatives will win though, because they have way more children than feminists (male and female). Feminist attitudes will simply die out.
  - 10y ago
lusen 10y ago
how much of a problem are false accusations compared to not reporting sexual harassment or rape? this is a really interesting point worth investigating. i don't have research on hand to link to (though it's fresh on my mind from reading Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist), but my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. false positives is not a huge problem. false negatives are. by talking about false accusations you are placing greater importance on the suffering of the fewer people who are falsely accused compared to the suffering of the greater people who are falsely silent. that's fine to intentionally value this, but do consider how this parallels rape culture and the protection of aggressors over the safety of victims. (for offenders, like priests who abused children, become repeat offenders) as for the fact that men are also harassed and raped, and that male-male and female-female harassment and rape also exist: these are big problems, too, and the silence of the victims is even more complicated, for it doesn't follow the usual victim norm. people want to be heard. they want their problems to be seen and resolved. thus i contend that being heard is the greater problem. not false accusations.
- mafribe 10y ago
  my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. My understanding is quite the opposite. Recent media scares from the mattress girl to the UVA rape hoax to "Joey" [1], not to mention financial incentives (e.g. alimony in divorce cases), are exactly helping to convince me otherwise. Historically, lynching was often justified by references to rape of some damsels ... Are you suggesting that these cases were anything but false accusations? [1] http://wjbf.com/2016/06/15/facebook-post-gets-shared-thousands-of-times-for-the-wrong-reason-shames-innocent-special-needs-man/?cid=facebook_WDTN-TV http://wjbf.com/2016/06/15/facebook-post-gets-shared-thousan...
  - mafribe 10y ago
    Sorry, that should be: ... are not exactly helping ...

by mafribe 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 10y ago

> What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.

mafribe 10y ago
There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Wait, you are arguing the fact that California's criminal statutory rape law has a conclusive presumption that a sexual act but someone under 18 is not voluntary while it's child support laws do not and let that be a question of fact for a court to resolve is "misandry in the harassment laws", and use as your strongest evidence a case where an adult woman was convicted of a felony for what was legally established in the subsequent support case to be, in fact, mutually voluntary intecourse? There's certainly an inconsistency between two laws there, but it's hard to see that as an example of misandry, and, since neither of the laws involved is a harassment law, harder to see it as misandry in the harassment laws.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    You don't think false rape accusations and convictions are an extreme case of harassment?

smoyer 10y ago

I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner. Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress. So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I felt safe admitting that my original sentence contained some stereotypical ideas. And while we're at it, I know plenty of girls and women who could kick my butt - those ladies that fall into that category can feel free to be my knight in shining armor if they see me being harassed. A funny story from my high-school days - our sociology class was assigned to perform an act that fell outside the social norms. I spent a few hours one day opening the doors for anyone who entered our local mall. One woman (who still went through the open door) asked me if my parents would be embarrassed that they'd raised such a male-chauvinist pig. I have no idea where it came from but my response was "They think they've raised a gentleman - if you'd held the door open for me, I only would have said 'Thank you'". Why is it that I often only think of the clever thing to say minutes or hours after the moment has passed?

mafribe 10y ago
Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight". There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though. Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous nuclear families are best for society and also best for the individuals involved. Without conventional families they belive فتنة (Fitna) will rule. Feminists OTOH do so for altogether different reasons, indeed they loath the stable monogamous nuclear families. For reasons that are beyond what can be easily discussed in a HN post, feminists have won this battle for now, and use social conservatives as enforcers, something the latter don't realise because they fundamentally don't understand that they are being taken for a ride. In the long run social conservatives will win though, because they have way more children than feminists (male and female). Feminist attitudes will simply die out.
- 10y ago

lusen 10y ago

how much of a problem are false accusations compared to not reporting sexual harassment or rape? this is a really interesting point worth investigating. i don't have research on hand to link to (though it's fresh on my mind from reading Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist), but my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. false positives is not a huge problem. false negatives are. by talking about false accusations you are placing greater importance on the suffering of the fewer people who are falsely accused compared to the suffering of the greater people who are falsely silent. that's fine to intentionally value this, but do consider how this parallels rape culture and the protection of aggressors over the safety of victims. (for offenders, like priests who abused children, become repeat offenders) as for the fact that men are also harassed and raped, and that male-male and female-female harassment and rape also exist: these are big problems, too, and the silence of the victims is even more complicated, for it doesn't follow the usual victim norm. people want to be heard. they want their problems to be seen and resolved. thus i contend that being heard is the greater problem. not false accusations.

mafribe 10y ago
my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. My understanding is quite the opposite. Recent media scares from the mattress girl to the UVA rape hoax to "Joey" [1], not to mention financial incentives (e.g. alimony in divorce cases), are exactly helping to convince me otherwise. Historically, lynching was often justified by references to rape of some damsels ... Are you suggesting that these cases were anything but false accusations? [1] http://wjbf.com/2016/06/15/facebook-post-gets-shared-thousands-of-times-for-the-wrong-reason-shames-innocent-special-needs-man/?cid=facebook_WDTN-TV http://wjbf.com/2016/06/15/facebook-post-gets-shared-thousan...
- mafribe 10y ago
  Sorry, that should be: ... are not exactly helping ...