4 ms·

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may als

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it....God, I'm tired of being painted with a broad brush (in general, I'm not implying that smoyer did so) and told that I'm part of the problem. The finger-waggling can get quite grating if you're just trying to do your best day-to-day without being a dick to anybody. I suspect there are quite a few guys in the same boat who don't have issues with anybody due to their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation but are dealing with "chastisement fatigue". Edit: What, I'm the villain for agreeing with the parent post but complaining about being painted with a broad brush? What the hell is wrong with some of you?

harpastum 10y ago
The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard to stand up for yourself in the face of abuse, and one of the biggest is feeling isolated and alone in your problems. So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better.
- MrZongle2 10y ago
  "So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better." Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old.
  - harpastum 10y ago
    I don't think you're getting lumped in with the "real bad guys". There is a vast difference between being the source of a problem and failing to help stop a problem. Still, the only way to minimize the effect of the first group is to make an intense effort not to be in the second.
- dpark 10y ago
  You missed the other part of his comment: "as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry". If you don't see behavior like this, it's hard to stand up against it. I don't see behavior like this either. I'm fully in favor of standing up against it, but I'm lucky in that I don't work in an environment where this seems to be happening much. I'm sure abuse happens, because it happens everywhere, but if I don't see it I can't really stand up against it. It's one thing to proclaim loudly. It's another to take action. I personally don't have anything to take action against in my current environment.
smoyer 10y ago
"what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture" It feels weird to be quoting myself but I definitely agree with you ... I'm (finally) making this a proclamation because I don't want to be painted with that broad brush either. And I think that there's a very quiet majority of males who feel this is wrong but are unwilling to call it out. I'm a WASP male and find there are multiple ways I can be vilified. I'm NOT owning that. If the view of men is going to change, the majority of us need to be speaking out against the abuse. There have been a couple instances where I've overheard the broad brush strokes you've described and pointedly asked "are we all that bad" ... you'll see back-pedaling and sometimes an admission that it's (also) a generalization.
bllguo 10y ago
Firstly: "Please resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Sometimes it just happens, there are people who simply disagree. Secondly: this kind of "as long as I'm not doing anything wrong it's fine" attitude is precisely what the commenter was calling out as being not enough.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  I disagree on both parts. Downvoting without explaining only stifles communication and smugly reinforces both sides' viewpoints. A downvote IMO should only be used if the comment is brazenly off-topic, offensive, or factually incorrect. As for the second part, someone could be a true angel but never witness any harassment and never have the chance to bring an offender to justice - does that make them a better or worse person than someone who had? I think the parent's point was that if people just got along and didn't cause these kinds of problems we wouldn't have to suddenly shunt souls into categories: "offender";"victim";"witness";"white knight";"silently complicit" And so on.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "just got along" and "didn't cause these kinds of problems"? Don't rock the boat? Don't be a narc or a buzzkill? Get a sense of humor?
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      Maybe if people went to work to work and not sexually harass other people we would all be in a better place. I did not say at all that one should stay silent in the face of adversity.
      - mcguire 10y ago
        And if pigs could fly, we'd all have instantaneous bacon delivery. Counterfactuals are fun.

harpastum 10y ago

The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard to stand up for yourself in the face of abuse, and one of the biggest is feeling isolated and alone in your problems. So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better.

MrZongle2 10y ago
"So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better." Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old.
- harpastum 10y ago
  I don't think you're getting lumped in with the "real bad guys". There is a vast difference between being the source of a problem and failing to help stop a problem. Still, the only way to minimize the effect of the first group is to make an intense effort not to be in the second.
dpark 10y ago
You missed the other part of his comment: "as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry". If you don't see behavior like this, it's hard to stand up against it. I don't see behavior like this either. I'm fully in favor of standing up against it, but I'm lucky in that I don't work in an environment where this seems to be happening much. I'm sure abuse happens, because it happens everywhere, but if I don't see it I can't really stand up against it. It's one thing to proclaim loudly. It's another to take action. I personally don't have anything to take action against in my current environment.

smoyer 10y ago

"what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture" It feels weird to be quoting myself but I definitely agree with you ... I'm (finally) making this a proclamation because I don't want to be painted with that broad brush either. And I think that there's a very quiet majority of males who feel this is wrong but are unwilling to call it out. I'm a WASP male and find there are multiple ways I can be vilified. I'm NOT owning that. If the view of men is going to change, the majority of us need to be speaking out against the abuse. There have been a couple instances where I've overheard the broad brush strokes you've described and pointedly asked "are we all that bad" ... you'll see back-pedaling and sometimes an admission that it's (also) a generalization.

bllguo 10y ago

Firstly: "Please resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Sometimes it just happens, there are people who simply disagree. Secondly: this kind of "as long as I'm not doing anything wrong it's fine" attitude is precisely what the commenter was calling out as being not enough.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I disagree on both parts. Downvoting without explaining only stifles communication and smugly reinforces both sides' viewpoints. A downvote IMO should only be used if the comment is brazenly off-topic, offensive, or factually incorrect. As for the second part, someone could be a true angel but never witness any harassment and never have the chance to bring an offender to justice - does that make them a better or worse person than someone who had? I think the parent's point was that if people just got along and didn't cause these kinds of problems we wouldn't have to suddenly shunt souls into categories: "offender";"victim";"witness";"white knight";"silently complicit" And so on.
- mcguire 10y ago
  Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "just got along" and "didn't cause these kinds of problems"? Don't rock the boat? Don't be a narc or a buzzkill? Get a sense of humor?
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Maybe if people went to work to work and not sexually harass other people we would all be in a better place. I did not say at all that one should stay silent in the face of adversity.
    - mcguire 10y ago
      And if pigs could fly, we'd all have instantaneous bacon delivery. Counterfactuals are fun.