6 ms·

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in

by smoyer 10y ago

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men who are willing to speak out against them, and an ocean of those who don't want to be involved in the middle, only a mere whisper of voices are countering those who, to be honest, tend to be the loud-mouth, misbehaving misogynists. It's time for the gentlemen to step up their game. <PROCLAMATION> If you're being harassed, sexually or otherwise, within my earshot, I will take action to stop it. I'm not offering hugs of consolation but rather to stand between you and the abuse. I will protect you (potentially a stranger) as I would a member of family or any of my close friends. Those of us with spouses, daughters (and sons) want safe places for them to work too! I originally wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." but realize there are many cases where a bully is harassing someone who shares their gender. And in the corporate world, there are always predators taking credit for others work (according to recent studies, it's the psychopaths that rise to the top). I've had a long career in technology, and in theory have enough of a reputation that I can afford to spend some political capital. I think the younger men who are "just starting out" have a bigger voice than they realize, but they need to band together. Let's take back the organizations that have degraded to this point ... when there's nowhere left for people like Applebaum to work, I still won't feel sorry for him. What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? </PROCLAMATION>

MrZongle2 10y ago
"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it....God, I'm tired of being painted with a broad brush (in general, I'm not implying that smoyer did so) and told that I'm part of the problem. The finger-waggling can get quite grating if you're just trying to do your best day-to-day without being a dick to anybody. I suspect there are quite a few guys in the same boat who don't have issues with anybody due to their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation but are dealing with "chastisement fatigue". Edit: What, I'm the villain for agreeing with the parent post but complaining about being painted with a broad brush? What the hell is wrong with some of you?
- harpastum 10y ago
  The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard to stand up for yourself in the face of abuse, and one of the biggest is feeling isolated and alone in your problems. So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better.
  - MrZongle2 10y ago
    "So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better." Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old.
    - harpastum 10y ago
      I don't think you're getting lumped in with the "real bad guys". There is a vast difference between being the source of a problem and failing to help stop a problem. Still, the only way to minimize the effect of the first group is to make an intense effort not to be in the second.
  - dpark 10y ago
    You missed the other part of his comment: "as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry". If you don't see behavior like this, it's hard to stand up against it. I don't see behavior like this either. I'm fully in favor of standing up against it, but I'm lucky in that I don't work in an environment where this seems to be happening much. I'm sure abuse happens, because it happens everywhere, but if I don't see it I can't really stand up against it. It's one thing to proclaim loudly. It's another to take action. I personally don't have anything to take action against in my current environment.
mafribe 10y ago
are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Wait, you are arguing the fact that California's criminal statutory rape law has a conclusive presumption that a sexual act but someone under 18 is not voluntary while it's child support laws do not and let that be a question of fact for a court to resolve is "misandry in the harassment laws", and use as your strongest evidence a case where an adult woman was convicted of a felony for what was legally established in the subsequent support case to be, in fact, mutually voluntary intecourse? There's certainly an inconsistency between two laws there, but it's hard to see that as an example of misandry, and, since neither of the laws involved is a harassment law, harder to see it as misandry in the harassment laws.
      - 10y ago
romanovcode 10y ago
>What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? Chivalry is dead, and women killed it.
- avocad 10y ago
  If your chivalry is killed that easily, it was not worth much to begin with.
- RileyKyeden 10y ago
  > Chivalry is dead What a relief. > and women killed it Good on them. Let's send all gender roles into the past with other relics like dowries and stonings, where they belong.
  - avocad 10y ago
    Chivalry has nothing to do with gender roles, or holding doors for pretty women. The way I have learned it is about doing the right thing while avoiding reward or recognition.
tootie 10y ago
Protect in this case being to ensure the perpetrator is fired. Let him, management, HR and everyone on your team know that it's unacceptable and that person should be ostracized. Just like I won't watch Roman Polanski movies.
avocad 10y ago
I agree with you, and before reading yours I wanted to write a less theatrical comment in the same line. I figure people like Appelbaum are making tech a hostile environment for women to work in, like a vicious circle. The thing that drew my attention was the public comment he made about giving head. Because why would anyone want to work with a person who behaves like that? He probably knows how to pick an audience, but the real explanation came at the end of the article: "People like Jake can be found in other places (...) Wherever power imbalances, hero worship, and secret-keepers intersect." And those are places that independent people like to avoid. And that might be an explanation for why so many people never heard of stories like that in their surroundings.
Kalium 10y ago
It's great in the abstract. Enlightened bystanders, intervening to halt abusive behavior. Exactly what everyone who's ever suffered abusive behavior dreams of! I know I have in the past. Yet in practice, trying to be that enlightened bystander means listening in on a lot of private conversations, a lot of privately judging people and their actions with context, and a lot of intruding in places where nobody involved has invited you. I've been rebuked for trying to "step up my game" and getting it wrong enough times that I no longer trust the concept. I'm done second-guessing which particular people want/need help in particular moments and which don't. It's patronizing as hell. I'll help those who ask and I'll make it easy to ask, but I'm done making people's choices for them.
- avocad 10y ago
  There were mentions of open, public humiliations with sexual suggestions. You don't have to accept that talk in a meeting that you attend even when it is completely consensual.

by smoyer 10y ago

MrZongle2 10y ago

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it....God, I'm tired of being painted with a broad brush (in general, I'm not implying that smoyer did so) and told that I'm part of the problem. The finger-waggling can get quite grating if you're just trying to do your best day-to-day without being a dick to anybody. I suspect there are quite a few guys in the same boat who don't have issues with anybody due to their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation but are dealing with "chastisement fatigue". Edit: What, I'm the villain for agreeing with the parent post but complaining about being painted with a broad brush? What the hell is wrong with some of you?

harpastum 10y ago
The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard to stand up for yourself in the face of abuse, and one of the biggest is feeling isolated and alone in your problems. So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better.
- MrZongle2 10y ago
  "So, if you ignore the problem because you're "just doing your best day-to-day", you are part of the reason that the situation is not getting better." Who says I'm ignoring the problem? I've agreed that there is a problem. My point is that there's a lot of us out there being lumped in with the real bad guys, and that gets old.
  - harpastum 10y ago
    I don't think you're getting lumped in with the "real bad guys". There is a vast difference between being the source of a problem and failing to help stop a problem. Still, the only way to minimize the effect of the first group is to make an intense effort not to be in the second.
- dpark 10y ago
  You missed the other part of his comment: "as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry". If you don't see behavior like this, it's hard to stand up against it. I don't see behavior like this either. I'm fully in favor of standing up against it, but I'm lucky in that I don't work in an environment where this seems to be happening much. I'm sure abuse happens, because it happens everywhere, but if I don't see it I can't really stand up against it. It's one thing to proclaim loudly. It's another to take action. I personally don't have anything to take action against in my current environment.

mafribe 10y ago

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 10y ago
> What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.
- mafribe 10y ago
  There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Wait, you are arguing the fact that California's criminal statutory rape law has a conclusive presumption that a sexual act but someone under 18 is not voluntary while it's child support laws do not and let that be a question of fact for a court to resolve is "misandry in the harassment laws", and use as your strongest evidence a case where an adult woman was convicted of a felony for what was legally established in the subsequent support case to be, in fact, mutually voluntary intecourse? There's certainly an inconsistency between two laws there, but it's hard to see that as an example of misandry, and, since neither of the laws involved is a harassment law, harder to see it as misandry in the harassment laws.
    - 10y ago

romanovcode 10y ago

>What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? Chivalry is dead, and women killed it.

avocad 10y ago
If your chivalry is killed that easily, it was not worth much to begin with.
RileyKyeden 10y ago
> Chivalry is dead What a relief. > and women killed it Good on them. Let's send all gender roles into the past with other relics like dowries and stonings, where they belong.
- avocad 10y ago
  Chivalry has nothing to do with gender roles, or holding doors for pretty women. The way I have learned it is about doing the right thing while avoiding reward or recognition.

tootie 10y ago

Protect in this case being to ensure the perpetrator is fired. Let him, management, HR and everyone on your team know that it's unacceptable and that person should be ostracized. Just like I won't watch Roman Polanski movies.

avocad 10y ago

I agree with you, and before reading yours I wanted to write a less theatrical comment in the same line. I figure people like Appelbaum are making tech a hostile environment for women to work in, like a vicious circle. The thing that drew my attention was the public comment he made about giving head. Because why would anyone want to work with a person who behaves like that? He probably knows how to pick an audience, but the real explanation came at the end of the article: "People like Jake can be found in other places (...) Wherever power imbalances, hero worship, and secret-keepers intersect." And those are places that independent people like to avoid. And that might be an explanation for why so many people never heard of stories like that in their surroundings.

Kalium 10y ago

It's great in the abstract. Enlightened bystanders, intervening to halt abusive behavior. Exactly what everyone who's ever suffered abusive behavior dreams of! I know I have in the past. Yet in practice, trying to be that enlightened bystander means listening in on a lot of private conversations, a lot of privately judging people and their actions with context, and a lot of intruding in places where nobody involved has invited you. I've been rebuked for trying to "step up my game" and getting it wrong enough times that I no longer trust the concept. I'm done second-guessing which particular people want/need help in particular moments and which don't. It's patronizing as hell. I'll help those who ask and I'll make it easy to ask, but I'm done making people's choices for them.

avocad 10y ago
There were mentions of open, public humiliations with sexual suggestions. You don't have to accept that talk in a meeting that you attend even when it is completely consensual.