7 ms·

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some for

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

chaz72 10y ago
No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.
  - mordocai 10y ago
    Unfortunately, not doing this is a good way to end up in a situation like outlined in the blog post. There isn't an easy answer here.
    - ultramancool 10y ago
      Certainly, I'm just trying to argue against the overly simplistic view.
  - chaz72 10y ago
    A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.
    - ultramancool 10y ago
      Last I checked the Tor developers don't own the entire privacy community. That said, yes, they do lend a lot of legitimacy to this claim, but it just concerns me that no one has publicly put their name on a rape allegation and nothing has been taken up legally.
      - mordocai 10y ago
        Why is a rape allegation needed? A history of sexual harassment, rape or not, is enough for me to kick someone out of any community I'm a part of. There's the problem of false accusations, but I think there is enough "evidence" with this many coming forward (and many non-anonymously) and that Tor kicked him out too.
        ultramancool 10y ago
        I certainly agree with your basic grounds, but there's a rape allegation needed when people are willing to spray paint "a rapist lives here" on your home.
        mordocai 10y ago
        Which I don't see anyone doing? Maybe in some other article/blog post but in the one here I see accusations of harassment and brief mentions that others are accusing of rape.
        ultramancool 10y ago
        Someone literally did that. https://contraspin.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mc1.png https://contraspin.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mc1.png
        mordocai 10y ago
        I wasn't aware of that, and that was wrong. However, the blog post discussed here nor anyone in the thread has suggested that that should be done so I'm confused why you are fixated on it.
ultramancool 10y ago
Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.
- adwn 10y ago
  Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    Perhaps, but if you're going to make public accusations against him, but then back out before anyone can validate them, that seems... suspect at best. What, it's better to let him go out and hurt others than to take it public or legal?
    - samastur 10y ago
      No, it really doesn't based on research so far. I also do not understand your obsession with alleged rape. If it turned out that rape part was not true, but others were, would you see Applebaum differently? I sure as hell wouldn't.
      - ultramancool 10y ago
        I certainly would. There's a major difference between someone making some offensive comments (even repeatedly) and someone committing violent crime.
        tobltobs 10y ago
        So you are fine with his other behaviour?
        10y ago
vtlynch 10y ago
Suggesting that the volume of accusations and eyewitness accounts that have been made against Appelbaum may be "false accusations" is a shameful thing to do.
- camperman 10y ago
  I wasn't but even if I was it isn't shameful at all - it's how justice works in Western societies. Someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Allegations are just that - allegations. If there are a wide variety of them independently from different people, then it's more likely that there is something to them but that still doesn't mean you can just rush to judgement. That way lies Duke Lacrosse, Mattress Girl and A Rape On Campus just off the top of my head.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    The courts can lock you up or kill you, so it's appropriate if they have somewhat stringent standards for guilt. Private organizations can only show you the door, and the standards for that are quite a bit less exacting. The media episodes you mention are not relevant to the internal operation of private organizations.
    - camperman 10y ago
      Hang on, we're not just talking about violations of internal company policies that led to a dismissal here. We're talking about crimes. I quote: "sexual harassment, rape, stalking, personal threats, and more." Appelbaum is entitled to defend himself and face his accusers in court if they believe they have something against him. As to his guilt, I don't know. Half of me thinks he could well be a slimeball that's guilty as charged. If that's the case, then he needs to go to jail. But the other half of me remembers that there's 'women in tech' organisations that have been accused of framing technology leaders for sexual assault just to marginalize them. That's why I want to see some due process and some real evidence.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
pjc50 10y ago
False accusations can and do happen all the time No, accusations are labelled as false all the time; genuinely baseless accusations are much rarer.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Maybe you have to live longer to experience this. Have encountered false accusations more than once in my life (not about me, but I knew they were false). If I'm typical, then they happen all the time everywhere?
  - pjc50 10y ago
    False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general?
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general? False accusations of sexual harassment do, in fact, happen (and, should a general perception that they do not occur become widely recognized, it would be reasonable to expect that that alone would make false accusations more common -- the general acceptance of the belief "no one would lie about X" encourages lying about X.)
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      No. E.g. one was of a traffic incident that I was a passenger in.
- bjourne 10y ago
  Completely untrue. Victims of bullying, both in workplaces and in schools, are very often subjected to incredibly vicious rumors that are 100% made up.
DanBC 10y ago
> False accusations can and do happen all the time. Can I check how you're defining "false accusation"? There are several different definitions. EDIT after downvote: The different definitions include "nothing happened and the alleged victim made it all up", but also "it happened, and the alleged attacker actually did it, but was found not guilty, and so in law they're innocent and thus the accusation is false". Clarifying which definition is being used helps conversation.
llamataboot 10y ago
Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "restorative justice rape" for example, to read about approaches that have worked. Isis even talked about being involved in some of these approaches in the past (and why they weren't currently working with Appelbaum)
- camperman 10y ago
  > Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? I don't really care. For all its faults, due process in the West is still a whole lot better than the alternatives. > There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. If these allegations are true, Appelbaum is clearly someone who needs to be locked away from society for decades in my opinion and no-one can arbitrarily claim that authority. The important word is 'if'. > Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "restorative justice rape" for example, to read about approaches that have worked. Great. Let's find out if a rape happened first. Because it didn't happen at Duke Lacrosse, it didn't happen to Emma Sulkowicz, it didn't happen at the University of Virginia, it didn't happen to Nicola Osborne, Elizabeth Coast, Katherine Bennett, Cassandra Kennedy or Linsey Attridge.
  - masmullin 10y ago
    saved

chaz72 10y ago

No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.

ultramancool 10y ago
This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.
- mordocai 10y ago
  Unfortunately, not doing this is a good way to end up in a situation like outlined in the blog post. There isn't an easy answer here.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    Certainly, I'm just trying to argue against the overly simplistic view.
- chaz72 10y ago
  A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    Last I checked the Tor developers don't own the entire privacy community. That said, yes, they do lend a lot of legitimacy to this claim, but it just concerns me that no one has publicly put their name on a rape allegation and nothing has been taken up legally.
    - mordocai 10y ago
      Why is a rape allegation needed? A history of sexual harassment, rape or not, is enough for me to kick someone out of any community I'm a part of. There's the problem of false accusations, but I think there is enough "evidence" with this many coming forward (and many non-anonymously) and that Tor kicked him out too.
      - ultramancool 10y ago
        I certainly agree with your basic grounds, but there's a rape allegation needed when people are willing to spray paint "a rapist lives here" on your home.
        mordocai 10y ago
        Which I don't see anyone doing? Maybe in some other article/blog post but in the one here I see accusations of harassment and brief mentions that others are accusing of rape.
        ultramancool 10y ago
        Someone literally did that. https://contraspin.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mc1.png https://contraspin.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mc1.png
        mordocai 10y ago
        I wasn't aware of that, and that was wrong. However, the blog post discussed here nor anyone in the thread has suggested that that should be done so I'm confused why you are fixated on it.

ultramancool 10y ago

Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

adwn 10y ago
Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  Perhaps, but if you're going to make public accusations against him, but then back out before anyone can validate them, that seems... suspect at best. What, it's better to let him go out and hurt others than to take it public or legal?
  - samastur 10y ago
    No, it really doesn't based on research so far. I also do not understand your obsession with alleged rape. If it turned out that rape part was not true, but others were, would you see Applebaum differently? I sure as hell wouldn't.
    - ultramancool 10y ago
      I certainly would. There's a major difference between someone making some offensive comments (even repeatedly) and someone committing violent crime.
      - tobltobs 10y ago
        So you are fine with his other behaviour?
        10y ago

vtlynch 10y ago

Suggesting that the volume of accusations and eyewitness accounts that have been made against Appelbaum may be "false accusations" is a shameful thing to do.

camperman 10y ago
I wasn't but even if I was it isn't shameful at all - it's how justice works in Western societies. Someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Allegations are just that - allegations. If there are a wide variety of them independently from different people, then it's more likely that there is something to them but that still doesn't mean you can just rush to judgement. That way lies Duke Lacrosse, Mattress Girl and A Rape On Campus just off the top of my head.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  The courts can lock you up or kill you, so it's appropriate if they have somewhat stringent standards for guilt. Private organizations can only show you the door, and the standards for that are quite a bit less exacting. The media episodes you mention are not relevant to the internal operation of private organizations.
  - camperman 10y ago
    Hang on, we're not just talking about violations of internal company policies that led to a dismissal here. We're talking about crimes. I quote: "sexual harassment, rape, stalking, personal threats, and more." Appelbaum is entitled to defend himself and face his accusers in court if they believe they have something against him. As to his guilt, I don't know. Half of me thinks he could well be a slimeball that's guilty as charged. If that's the case, then he needs to go to jail. But the other half of me remembers that there's 'women in tech' organisations that have been accused of framing technology leaders for sexual assault just to marginalize them. That's why I want to see some due process and some real evidence.
    - jessaustin 10y ago

pjc50 10y ago

False accusations can and do happen all the time No, accusations are labelled as false all the time; genuinely baseless accusations are much rarer.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Maybe you have to live longer to experience this. Have encountered false accusations more than once in my life (not about me, but I knew they were false). If I'm typical, then they happen all the time everywhere?
- pjc50 10y ago
  False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general? False accusations of sexual harassment do, in fact, happen (and, should a general perception that they do not occur become widely recognized, it would be reasonable to expect that that alone would make false accusations more common -- the general acceptance of the belief "no one would lie about X" encourages lying about X.)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    No. E.g. one was of a traffic incident that I was a passenger in.
bjourne 10y ago
Completely untrue. Victims of bullying, both in workplaces and in schools, are very often subjected to incredibly vicious rumors that are 100% made up.

DanBC 10y ago

> False accusations can and do happen all the time. Can I check how you're defining "false accusation"? There are several different definitions. EDIT after downvote: The different definitions include "nothing happened and the alleged victim made it all up", but also "it happened, and the alleged attacker actually did it, but was found not guilty, and so in law they're innocent and thus the accusation is false". Clarifying which definition is being used helps conversation.

llamataboot 10y ago

Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "restorative justice rape" for example, to read about approaches that have worked. Isis even talked about being involved in some of these approaches in the past (and why they weren't currently working with Appelbaum)

camperman 10y ago
> Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? I don't really care. For all its faults, due process in the West is still a whole lot better than the alternatives. > There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. If these allegations are true, Appelbaum is clearly someone who needs to be locked away from society for decades in my opinion and no-one can arbitrarily claim that authority. The important word is 'if'. > Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "restorative justice rape" for example, to read about approaches that have worked. Great. Let's find out if a rape happened first. Because it didn't happen at Duke Lacrosse, it didn't happen to Emma Sulkowicz, it didn't happen at the University of Virginia, it didn't happen to Nicola Osborne, Elizabeth Coast, Katherine Bennett, Cassandra Kennedy or Linsey Attridge.
- masmullin 10y ago
  saved