18 ms·

“But he does good work.”

415 points by jarcane 10y ago

lusen 10y ago
our cultural environment gives us a bias toward downplaying the problem of rape and sexual harassment. i've found this thought experiment helpful in exploring bias: rape is torture. for some it is worse than murder. sexual harassment is aggression. for some it is worse than being punched in the face. how would you feel if someone at your work murdered or punched someone else? how would you feel if there was a systemic cultural inequity such that 1 in 3 people could expect to be murdered or punched at some point in their life? ps - the opposite of rape (bully) culture is nurturance (support) culture.
- barkingdog 10y ago
  This is a really lucid explanation of something that is often unnecessarily muddled. Well spoken. To continue going with your thought experiment, how would you feel like if certain kind of people were tortured based on how they were different from you, and it was hard for you to even conceive of what that must feel like for them? I think a lot of well intentioned folks are in this category. I don't think it's helpful for those folks to be skewered (ala extreme social justice style) for their difficulties. But with that said, it's the sum of their difficulties and those of society at large that may create room for these kinds of situations. I mean, for a very long time, we as a society had ethical arguments for slavery. I don't think it's beyond reason to think that later generations will look at the way survivors of sexual assault are treated by society the way we look at how slaves were once treated with society: shame and wonder at how anyone could let that happen, and yet an uneasiness at realizing that in the context of the historical period, it makes total sense. Humanity is capable of some really unsettling things. I don't know the details of this particular case, and I would hope (although even courts have difficulties with this) that justice is found in the courts. But I must say, the allegations make my stomach churn precisely because they don't seem unrealistic. I've heard stories and seen folks do things like this with the brazen presumption that no one would stop them. Sadly, they can be right to some extent. I've done what I can to put those situations to a stop (you can only really do it if executive leadership is on your side and also not rotten in the same way the toxic individual is), but the fact remains -- it's a problem, even if it's sometime subtle and hard to notice or do anything about.
- hashberry 10y ago
  What about "up-playing" rape? In an account of one of Jacob's assaults[0], the victim wrote: "he was rubbing my clit and rimming the edges of my vagina" and then below she wrote according to German law this is rape with a maximum of 10 years in prison. Was this torture and worse than murder? [0] https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees.html https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees....
  - fl0wenol 10y ago
    No, it's just predatory, disgusting, and wrong. Five years.
  - pyrale 10y ago
    For some it is. There's a reason suicide is much higher among victimes of rape.
kendallpark 10y ago
This one of the most disturbing pieces I've read on this topic. Disgusting. "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."
- calibraxis 10y ago
  Yep. Common as hell though. Not only do I know many who've explicitly told me about such attacks, but basic statistics indicates that many people we know have been attacked, regardless of them telling us. (Of course people often don't speak up when attacked, because the rest of us are generally complicit in maintaining that culture, for example shaming or silencing targets.)
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    Has anyone actually put their real name on something saying they were personally attacked by him yet? Last I checked everything was just vague accusations, has this changed?
    - b33pr 10y ago
      My housemate dated him for a while. It's pretty much all true.
    - wiredfool 10y ago
      If I'm reading it right, violetblue. (and 9 others listed in one paragraph of the article)
      - camiller 10y ago
        This paragraph from the article: "More witnesses and stories have surfaced since. These include Bill Budington of the EFF, Micah Lee of the Intercept, Nick Farr, Quinn Norton, Leigh Honeywell, Alison Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Meredith Patterson, and Isis Agora Lovecruft."
        10y ago
893helios 10y ago
It's a bloody mess really. http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-...
- pierrebai 10y ago
  This link is really disturbing. The poster seems to go out of her way to frame all accusation against Jake Appelbaum as a setup to discredit him. She even begins with an apology that claiming that wikileaks and Assange are worthy of excusing him. Bascially, 'but he does good work'...! The text analysis reaslly outlines just how far people are going to try to drown and reject any allegation. Violet Blue's post contains dozens of precise allegations, with employer, locale, people and precise situations. Many of the incidents she describes can be verified, his getting fired and the emails. Yet, we're being served the same 'but he does good work.'
- jamespo 10y ago
  that's a very long-winded way of also saying "but he does good work"
  - srtjstjsj 10y ago
    It's a long-winded way of saying that the anti-ioerror camp is led by a group that has logical inconsistencies and possible dishonesty throughout its accusations, is attacking the people it claims to be trying to get justice for, and is scortched-earth inviting harassment upon uninvolved people who happen to live in ioerror's building.
    - jamespo 10y ago
      The "anti-ioerror camp" is not a single group, the idiots attacking the building have very little support I would imagine.
moon_of_moon 10y ago
I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something wrong, file charges, instead of this one sided character assassination. Aside: Listen kids, dont live in fear. Its better to burn out than to fade away.
- TheGirondin 10y ago
  Excellent analysis on that here: http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-... It seems we have going through a regression where extrajudicial mob justice is becoming acceptable again.
peterwwillis 10y ago
> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers. So, again, this was basically personal power within an in-group. It can happen in literally any in-group, because it's a social dynamic, and social dynamics don't follow the ethos of an organization, they follow human heuristics. The "stories" make for juicy reading, but the details of this case aren't special. Jake's is one of the most blatant, obvious, ongoing examples i've heard of, but similar situations happen in a variety of ways, usually far less obvious. Since the hacker scene is very much an exclusive in-group of outsiders, this kind of person is much more accepted there. But you'll still find these kinds of situations everywhere.
js8 10y ago
I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. People are human, and sometimes they are complicated, and can do good and bad at the same time.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  > I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. What on earth are you talking about? > If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a business context is absolutely someone who needs to be completely ostracized, this is an abusive person with some serious disorder who should have been fired the first time that happened. That is not ever OK.
  - TheGirondin 10y ago
    It depends on you worldview, if you find extrajudicial mob justice acceptable or if you believe in rule of law.
    - gnaritas 10y ago
      Firing someone for inappropriate abusive behavior is not remotely mob justice. Mob justice would be dragging him into a back alley and cutting his balls off. Do you see the difference? I'm guessing you don't since you're repeating your "mob justice" comment several times over.
    - andrewvc 10y ago
      Extrajudicial mob justice is killing someone who you think is a murderer. Firing someone because of their behavior does not require a court of law (though they can challenge it in court). Banning someone from a community function does not require a trial, nor should it. If you act like an asshole, don't be surprised if people don't want to be around you. That part of the situation is not a matter for the courts. The rape, however, is a matter for the courts.
DanBC 10y ago
It's really important that we understand why it's hard for people to stand up against abuse. It's very easy to say "I would", and maybe you would, but we see time and time again that it's hard for people to make that stand.
- m_t 10y ago
  I don't know why your comment seems downvoted. I think it is a very valid question. How, as an employer, as a community, can we make sure negative or abusive behaviour is dealt with correctly?
- stevetrewick 10y ago
  I cannot believe this is getting down voted. What the hell HN? Would anyone care to explain their reasoning? What the OP said is not even remotely controversial.
gooseyard 10y ago
If a guy like this were to get a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis, what do you suppose it'd be? Not that I feel bad for the guy, mind you, rather I feel it'd be helpful to the community of people who have been affected by this kind of behavior to have an accurate name for it other than just saying the guy is a douchebag. I knew a guy in college who had some aspects of this guy's behavior and was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (tragically, he fully embraced his condition), but I only have an armchair knowledge of psychiatry and I'd be interested to hear what somebody with experience has to say about it.
- tehrei 10y ago
  It isn't really a disorder, it's just a kind of personality. It's pretty much par for the course of simply being human. A good shrink should be able to get him to function with people who don't see things as the does, but there isn't anything wrong with him per se.
- salmon30salmon 10y ago
  It is generally considered inappropriate for a mental health practitioner to offer a diagnosis without formally seeing the patient in question, so I doubt that someone who has the knowledge to make an assessment would take the leap and breach protocol. It would surely be interesting though.
- dpark 10y ago
  There's a whole spectrum of personality disorders, including narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopathy). Any of these and maybe others could be diagnosed. Or maybe none and this guy (based on the alleged behaviors) is just a terrible person with no diagnosable disorder.
- musha68k 10y ago
  I can recommend Pieter Hintjens' "Psychopath Code" if you want to learn more on how human/social predators operate: http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths Edit: I neither know the accused nor the writer of that piece, I just wanted to share that there's lots of layers to reality and that this book was eye-opening to me in that regard.
tehrei 10y ago
I like how moon_of_moon's comment got flagged the second he posted it, real good work silencing discussion like that, guys. Relatedly, it's a bit sad what's happening to him. A few decades ago, he would have just been "that guy who makes the racy jokes" at an all-male shop, but over time our laissez-faire anything-goes culture has been taken over and thrust into a rather more corporate world, filled with people for whom our words that used to be simply racy are now akin to being stabbed through the heart. Such is the price of progress, I guess. I would suggest the companies mandating that people like him receive councelling, so they can function in today's diverse environments, but it feels really creepy for the company itself to be sending you to a mental health professional.
danso 10y ago
I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And because of that, I don't believe that things are ever as simple "if something is wrong, file charges" -- just like it's never as easy as "if you love someone, put a ring on it." I'll likely have the privilege of never having to file charges for rape, but once I had to file charges as a victim of armed robbery. Even though I had plenty of evidence, in hand and forthcoming (Android location tracing)...I had a hell of a time convincing a detective that I wasn't faking a robbery for insurance purposes, just because I wasn't clear exactly what block i was on when it happened. I can't even fucking imagine what it is like convincing the system that sexual assault (or even harassment) has happened, but I imagine the friction is enough to deter people from taking necessary action until it's too late. It seems that some of these victims are able to talk themselves out of thinking that a colleague truly did wrong, and when others step up, they realize their mistake in being quiet.
- mordocai 10y ago
  Not to mention that this guy would apparently blackmail and/or destroy you if you tried to spread the word (no mention of filing charges that I saw, but I imagine a similar story).
- dantillberg 10y ago
  Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did you work together? Will you possibly see social retaliation from the thief's allies for reporting their behavior? - Does everyone involved, including the thief and the police, agree on what defines acceptable/legal behavior, or are you going to be argue with the police and others that just because you wore a sexy dress didn't mean that you "wanted" someone to steal your phone?
adwn 10y ago
> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers. I see no dichotomy whatsoever. In fact, I would even say that individuals and organizations that pursue a "higher calling" (in this case, freedom from governmental authority) are more willing to sacrifice some less-valued members for the higher good – as evidenced by statements like "But he does good work". Besides, not everyone who belongs to an ideological organization is in it for the ideology; some are there for the power and influence they can achieve from rising through the ranks. Judging by the descriptions given in this article, Jacob Appelbaum appears quite power hungry and manipulative.
- vkazanov 10y ago
  I believe this is true for all organisations implying hierarchy, explicit (big enterprises) or implicit (as in hacker communities): some people join the ranks only to be able to enjoy domination at the top of the pyramid.
serg_chernata 10y ago
I am completely on her side and this dude seems sketchy. However, Macrina's story mentioned in a different article[0] sounded very very strange to me. I simply don't understand how Macrina, a working professional adult, can follow that kind of logic. To me it simply sounds like she made a mistake and now regrets it. [0] - http://gizmodo.com/another-woman-has-accused-jacob-appelbaum-of-sexual-ass-1782035625 http://gizmodo.com/another-woman-has-accused-jacob-appelbaum...
- dTal 10y ago
  It sounds scarily real to be. Being manipulated is a thing, and this ticks all the boxes: she was tired/hungover, he wouldn't take no for an answer, he continued talking about mundane stuff to maintain an atmosphere of normality even while applying strong pressure, she only found the strength to resist after being dragged (literally!) outside of her comfort zone. It rings very true and does not sound like the kind of story someone would make up for attention.
HarryHirsch 10y ago
Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.
- zellyn 10y ago
  Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by: - making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community - publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior - setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've missed some.
  - zellyn 10y ago
    Publicizing a way of reporting behavior would have ensured that there was a central, cumulative record of bad behavior, instead of anecdotal and diffuse understanding of the problem.
  - HarryHirsch 10y ago
    Storytime: Sometime ago had materials stolen by a student who felt the need to get back at me. The kid did have a lengthy record of erratic behaviour, and I did report the incident to police. It caused great displeasure within the department, because the parents were wealthy and possible donors. I'm convinced that the student handbook prevents non-sexual harassment of staff, and it's equally true that police and HR are the go-to contacts for that type of incident. The employee and student manuals are the applicable codes of conduct. It's true that the workplace owns the problem now, and that there can be a pattern established (and one for myself as well), but come again about the incredible helpfulness! The world isn't black and white, and groups value peace, but they also value money and presenting a united front. The often value the latter two more than the peace of a fellow at the bottom of the totem pole.
    - 10y ago
camperman 10y ago
A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.
- chaz72 10y ago
  No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.
    - mordocai 10y ago
      Unfortunately, not doing this is a good way to end up in a situation like outlined in the blog post. There isn't an easy answer here.
      - ultramancool 10y ago
        Certainly, I'm just trying to argue against the overly simplistic view.
    - chaz72 10y ago
      A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.
moon_of_moon 10y ago
Reposting, because at this point two other comments have referenced this flagged comment, therefore it probably has value: "I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something wrong, file charges, instead of this one sided character assassination. Aside: Listen kids, dont live in fear. Its better to burn out than to fade away." Edit: I'd like to add -- this does not seem to be a situation where someone in power is abusing authority. Its peer to peer.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Reflagging the comment, because it's wrong in predictable ways. Firstly, the conspiracy-theory reference to "establishment-mandated"; and secondly peer-to-peer situations are quite full enough of power relations. Especially as between men and women.
  - moon_of_moon 10y ago
    Dear establishment, When you see a talented programmer as a threat, help him start a company and buy him out, instead of resorting to this kind of behaviour. I think I see what this is about... https://github.com/ioerror https://github.com/ioerror
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      Why would you reward such a person.
epberry 10y ago
Wow this is messed up. This guy is clearly a predator and it's pretty shocking that he was able to operate in this way for so long. As much as women can be marginalized and harassed at tech companies I can easily see how the problem could be much worse with organizations like the Tor Project or Wikileaks that don't necessarily have professional management. > These are causes, not just jobs or consulting gigs. They are symbols for fighting injustice, and crusading for those at risk of exploitation. Their reputations are fraught and fragile. To attack a person in them is to attack the movement. They are also male-dominated organizations, in the male-dominated realm of hacking, where very few of the men are willing to accept that their hacker heroes, team bosses, and conference buddies might be doing really, really fucked up things to women. Above was the passage that struck me the most and seems like the most contributing factor for Jake's inexplicably long tenure. When you are constantly under attack by the powers that be it might seem rational to brush aside accusations against one of your most prominent members and plow ahead. Obviously this was a disastrous decision, both for the women involved and the organization. EDIT: a word.
- auvrw 10y ago
  yea, it's strangely counterintuitive: the politics of tor are non-mainstream, but in a potentially positive way. yet, that left the door open for seriously negative sociopolitical issues. is that the tl;dr of the parent post? anyway, i don't care what "league" this guy is in. wouldn't want to be around behavior like that. > what about the reality where Hitler cured cancer, Morty? it's best not to think about it.
- musha68k 10y ago
  I don't know if it is clear as I know neither of the persons involved (do you?). What seems ever clearer to me though is that many of the organizations/movements we look up to employ and attract certain kinds of people amongst which you'd probably find quite a few psychopaths as well (maybe even more so with "causes"). Do we need to fight fire with fire? If so, how can we keep our "beneficial" predators (?!) in check (?!?!) insofar as to steer them towards "just doing their job" by concentrating their pernicious powers on the psychopathic bodies (people, organizations, skynet..) we need to be fighting? If not, let's all level-up and fend them off - people involved with "causes" especially - hierarchies and secrets are the breeding ground for psychopaths as per Hintjens "Power Pyramids vs. Living Systems": http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter2.html http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter2.html http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths
infodroid 10y ago
Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate? I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct. It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts. It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters. The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing to the profession.
- MollyR 10y ago
  Probably because people have been encouraged to think of coworkers as friends or family. My personal suspicion is simply the rise of social media enables mob like behavior over due process and rule of law.
  - incongruity 10y ago
    And, I'd bet some of that encouragement happens because work-life balance is non-existent in many places and/or many people in tech simply don't have a deep social network outside of work because they tend to be younger/unmarried/relocated, etc.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Other industries do it in the old news media instead. And this isn't quite so much "industry" as "activism". If it were a professional setting, there would be an HR process to deal with it.
- misiti3780 10y ago
  i have been wondering this exact same thing too. this seems like it is isolated mostly to the tech community.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
clavalle 10y ago
Perhaps I am being stereotypically Texan here, but sometimes I wish there was space in our legal and ethical system to kick someone's ass for behavior that doesn't reach the level of provable criminality but that still calls for more than a sharp rebuke, public shaming, or ostracism. Our current status quo of 'violence is never the answer' seems to give assholes a bit too much wiggle room to make the rest of us suffer.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  In many jurisdictions, that space does exist, because cops and prosecutors are comfortable "looking the other way" when it's clear there is a reason to do so. It is to Texas's credit that much of that state is such a jurisdiction, but in fact much of the fly-over country is. Of course, a fake-ass "anarchist" like Applebaum might file a civil suit for a well-deserved ass-kicking, but that's still sunlight.
  - srtjstjsj 10y ago
    fake?
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Anarchism is a principled opposition to arbitrary authority. The behavior described in TFA is totally unprincipled grasping at any position of unearned dominance that could facilitate the gratification of selfish desires. It's difficult to imagine a person of this low character cheerfully accepting the personal autonomy of other humans he perceived as lower in power.
  - ElComradio 10y ago
    This is one of the many reasons why Texas is filled to the brim with happy and well adjusted people.
    - clavalle 10y ago
      As compared to where, California?
smoyer 10y ago
From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men who are willing to speak out against them, and an ocean of those who don't want to be involved in the middle, only a mere whisper of voices are countering those who, to be honest, tend to be the loud-mouth, misbehaving misogynists. It's time for the gentlemen to step up their game. <PROCLAMATION> If you're being harassed, sexually or otherwise, within my earshot, I will take action to stop it. I'm not offering hugs of consolation but rather to stand between you and the abuse. I will protect you (potentially a stranger) as I would a member of family or any of my close friends. Those of us with spouses, daughters (and sons) want safe places for them to work too! I originally wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." but realize there are many cases where a bully is harassing someone who shares their gender. And in the corporate world, there are always predators taking credit for others work (according to recent studies, it's the psychopaths that rise to the top). I've had a long career in technology, and in theory have enough of a reputation that I can afford to spend some political capital. I think the younger men who are "just starting out" have a bigger voice than they realize, but they need to band together. Let's take back the organizations that have degraded to this point ... when there's nowhere left for people like Applebaum to work, I still won't feel sorry for him. What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? </PROCLAMATION>
- MrZongle2 10y ago
  "If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it....God, I'm tired of being painted with a broad brush (in general, I'm not implying that smoyer did so) and told that I'm part of the problem. The finger-waggling can get quite grating if you're just trying to do your best day-to-day without being a dick to anybody. I suspect there are quite a few guys in the same boat who don't have issues with anybody due to their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation but are dealing with "chastisement fatigue". Edit: What, I'm the villain for agreeing with the parent post but complaining about being painted with a broad brush? What the hell is wrong with some of you?
pwenzel 10y ago
> CULT OF THE DEAD COW is known for a lot of things, but treating people horribly is not one of them. If communities are to thrive and remain relevant we have to do some housecleaning from time to time. As we have become aware of the anonymous accusations of sexual assault, as well as the stories told by individuals we know and trust, we’ve decided to remove Jake from the herd effective immediately. http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/2016/06/cult-of-the-dead-cow-statement-on-jacob-appelbaum-ioerror.html http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/2016/06/cult-of-the-dead-cow-s...
moon_of_moon 10y ago
Applebaum's side of the story: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- kemayo 10y ago
  The article links to that, and also to this "decoding" of it: https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.4oh9b8jgo https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...
  - moon_of_moon 10y ago
    Why decode it? Take it at face value: "I want to be clear: the accusations of criminal sexual misconduct against me are entirely false." "I’ve dedicated my life as a journalist, activist, and longtime member of the Tor Project to advocating for the transparency of public processes and to speaking out about the necessity of privacy, security, and anonymity. These are ideals that I will continue to uphold, despite the vicious campaign that is currently being waged against me." This guy spent two years in foster care when he was a kid. That kind of adversity, in my opinion, rears character.
    - kemayo 10y ago
      I think the point the "decoder" is making is that his denial is very carefully worded, and even taking him completely at face value, "I didn't do anything bad enough that I should be arrested for it" is a long way from "I didn't do anything wrong, and shouldn't be removed from this community".
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        It reminds one of that episode of Dresden Codak in which Kim reacts to slanderous online articles: KR: I'm not a criminal; I've never even been convicted of a felony in this state! BB: That's an oddly specific phrasing.
Bartweiss 10y ago
Can anyone fill me in on more details of the Snowden connection there? The rest of this article is quite thorough, and this topic certainly deserves more public discussion of what went wrong and what should be done in the future. Obviously this episode should unsettle those who have concluded that the claims are true, and even those who are uncertain should take a look at how these issues circulated for so long without being brought to a head. The Snowden comment, though, confused me. Appelbaum accepted an award on his behalf, but as far as I knew that's about the extend of it. CCC and Assange have been tied into the community for long enough to have heard these things, and I can understand the comment about how they should have vetted Appelbaum. Snowden (to my knowledge) had no real connections in this community, and Appelbaum only stepped up to bask in his glow once he was in hiding and largely restricted from 'vetting' others. There might be questions about why no one else who knew the claims stepped in, but barring more evidence I have trouble with the claim that Snowden has something to answer for. I don't want to push too hard on one off-hand comment in a much larger piece, but I've already seen this used as ammunition to discredit Snowden: "If his actions are so good, why did he have anything to do with Appelbaum?" It seems like a bad meme to spread without some explanation of why he should have known about as-yet-unpublicized accusations.
shasta 10y ago
Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" but rather "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him up to his room so maybe his claims that it was consensual are true." I get that you don't want police to blame the victim, but isn't it just as/more important that they correctly figure out who the victim is?
- panic 10y ago
  What someone is wearing has nothing to do with consent.
  - shasta 10y ago
    Your claim is that P(consent | sexy clothes) = P(consent | not sexy clothes)? Seems counterintuitive. Do you have evidence to support this claim?
  - threatofrain 10y ago
    If the prosecution, in anticipation of defense strategy, believes that what a person is wearing, among a collection of facts, may be utilized by defense, then of course it's to prosecution advantage to have the police ask first on their terms, as opposed to letting the defense ask these questions on their terms. That way the police and prosecution can control the progression of fact discovery. It's because prosecutors understand factors to legal victory that clothing, drug use, prior relationship with defendant, and other things like that are relevant. Speaking descriptively, the job of the police is not to act as some neutral 3rd party of justice and investigate all claims of the truth in proportion to their merit. It is the secondary job of the police to set up cases for the prosecution without regard for defense interests. It is the primary job of all agencies ever to manage organizational credibility, robustness, and scope.
    - 10y ago
fhood 10y ago
Sometimes the hardest part about dealing with people like this is that they seem to have multiple personalities. Thus a person that to me (white male) seems like a great guy, may not be that same person at all when they interact with others (women or minorities for instance). It can be really difficult to reconcile the person you know with the person that other people are interacting with, and when glimpses of this less pleasant personality show through in casual comments and the like, it is all too easy to write them off as jokes, because no one wants to believe that their friend is a bad person.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Such a person wouldn't necessarily even be abusive to all women. They tend to choose the most vulnerable as their victims. In this case we've seen a group of women publish a statement saying "Appelbaum never treated us like that" [0]. Well, it's nice that he wasn't a jerk to absolutely every woman he ever met, but that really doesn't prove anything at all. (At least the statement is fairly carefully worded so as not to dismiss the possibility that Appelbaum harmed others... but I still have to wonder if it was a good thing that they published it.) [0] https://ourresponse.org/ https://ourresponse.org/
_greim_ 10y ago
Setting aside for the moment the facts of this particular case, I thought the article makes a good point in general. > When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed.
simula67 10y ago
Does the flags on the comments affect if the story itself get flagged ?
srtjstjsj 10y ago
> I turned to Jake and said, “I think you have me confused with a certain blonde blogger,” Who is that referring to? Is the audience supposed to know, or was that in inside reference
- jessaustin 10y ago
  It might not have referred to anyone. She was trying to derail his bullshit, not have an engaging conversation.
throvwavvay 10y ago
What is the point of having a trial by media like this? If we want social change, could we first define the requirement for trial by media? We got statements from the accusers. We got statement from the accused. We got statement from people who are not victims but claim to speak for them (ie prosecutors). We got people who are neither the accuser nor accused, but instead talks in favor/against a conviction (ie lawyers). We got a jury, ie all the comments here on HN and articles on media platforms. All that is missing from a real court is the unbiased judge who can specify the rules and finalize a judgement. For those 100+ comments in here, particular those that make a direct or implied judgement, do you think we should replace the court system by articles like this? The current justice system has problems. It requires time, energy, and often capital from victims. Sometimes the guilt gets away. Sometimes the innocent get locked up. There is a lot of fear of not being believed. A lot of self-doubt. Privacy is lost for both the accuser/victim and accused/perpetrator. Social relationships can be destroyed, and risk of retaliation is high. Trial by media really sound as a tempting solution, and all we need to give up seems to be that of a impartial judge and the rules. notes: Its fun to see the up and down votes in real time. 1->4->2->5->1->3. The Zero replies make for a interesting discussion.
33a 10y ago
Well. Now I'm disgusted and freaked out for the rest of the day.
srtjstjsj 10y ago
How did the Kink thing stay quiet so long? There you have a corporate situation, with real lawsuit money on the table, and (I expect) sympathetic management.
mcguire 10y ago
Well, there is a bright side to all this. Social engineering is still the easiest, most successful approach to breaking any security infrastructure. Intelligence agencies have a long history of using sexual-antic-related blackmail as a lever against their opponents. But if nobody cares, it becomes somewhat more difficult to apply the lever.
ihsw 10y ago
So why hasn't anyone smashed his face yet? Surely an insufferable sexual failure like Applebaum should've attracted that kind of attention. Did every single person -- every victim, bystander, and authority figure -- deftly slink away or obediently succumb to his forcible coercion? Maybe I'm just a violent individual with anger issues but I would've had no problem with physically correcting his behavior.
CGamesPlay 10y ago
All of the commentary here is hedging against this anonymous rape claim. What bothers me is that if we throw that argument out there is still clearly some huge injustice going on here. With this hook the commentators here are seeking to disarm the entire rest of the argument. The nail in the coffin for me was when the Tor leadership acknowledged the harassment evidence but allowed it to continue. That's inexcusable. The actual criminal allegations should be settled in court.
dpeterson 10y ago
Baaa, Jacob bad, baaa, baaaa, baaad: http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-...
adrusi 10y ago
This article presents evidence that Appelbaum was a creep, but theres a big gap between creep and rapist. Pseudonymous accusations don't make for very compelling evidence. Regardless, my intuition is inclined to accept his guilt, not that I, or almost any of the internet commenters, are really qualified to pass that judgement. But when these cases arise, I can't help but think how easy it would be to manufacture a rape scandal, especially against a charismatic man, especially if they're a creep. I would think that security-minded people would be the first to realize this, but alas. Every time there's a public reaction like this, with the accused being fired and publicly shamed before any rigorous investigation even begins, we show potential defamers that the strategy works. It's a hard problem, because we want to support victims, but we can't ignore the fact that the accused could be the greatest victim of all. We have to postpone judgement in cases like these, until stronger evidence emerges, else we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals. We can't let that get in the way of reporting on the case, but at least we shouldn't give any credance to crap like the "skewering" article refuting Appelbaum's denial [1] (what statement of denial would have convinced the author?) and we shouldn't be respecting statements like in the Wired article [2]: Shepard also says she’s spoken directly with one of Appelbaum’s alleged victims, who told Shepard in February of this year that Appelbaum had raped him or her. “Sadly… I think it’s the damn truth. He’s a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator,” Shepard writes to WIRED. “I absolutely believe the accusers.” He's a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator, therefore he raped this woman? Does muscularity implicate someone in a mugging? The fact that you spoke with someone who spoke with an alleged victim and they were convinced, is meaningless, considering how many people are convinced of Appelbaum's guilt without knowing almost anything about the case. [1] https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.gbx8qswsk https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060... [2] https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-resigns-amid-sex-abuse-claims/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-...
- masmullin 10y ago
  > we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals. I think this is an interesting concept and needs to be brought more to light.
NetTechM 10y ago
Well, if he did it, he deserves whatever the judge gives him. Seems like there is a ton of twitter drama surrounding this, which I tend to avoid so I'll leave it at that.
mhewett 10y ago
Some possibly useful advice: if I'm at a conference and someone I sort of know says, "This one speaker is being an ass. He's pestering me about another speaker." I'm like, "yeah, yeah that's part of being an organizer". But if that person says, "Can you help me? Bill Smith is harassing me." Now they've got my attention. In this case I don't know what the exact dialog was, but if you want help be sure to ask for it and state clearly why. People will respond more proactively.

415 points by jarcane 10y ago

lusen 10y ago

our cultural environment gives us a bias toward downplaying the problem of rape and sexual harassment. i've found this thought experiment helpful in exploring bias: rape is torture. for some it is worse than murder. sexual harassment is aggression. for some it is worse than being punched in the face. how would you feel if someone at your work murdered or punched someone else? how would you feel if there was a systemic cultural inequity such that 1 in 3 people could expect to be murdered or punched at some point in their life? ps - the opposite of rape (bully) culture is nurturance (support) culture.

barkingdog 10y ago
This is a really lucid explanation of something that is often unnecessarily muddled. Well spoken. To continue going with your thought experiment, how would you feel like if certain kind of people were tortured based on how they were different from you, and it was hard for you to even conceive of what that must feel like for them? I think a lot of well intentioned folks are in this category. I don't think it's helpful for those folks to be skewered (ala extreme social justice style) for their difficulties. But with that said, it's the sum of their difficulties and those of society at large that may create room for these kinds of situations. I mean, for a very long time, we as a society had ethical arguments for slavery. I don't think it's beyond reason to think that later generations will look at the way survivors of sexual assault are treated by society the way we look at how slaves were once treated with society: shame and wonder at how anyone could let that happen, and yet an uneasiness at realizing that in the context of the historical period, it makes total sense. Humanity is capable of some really unsettling things. I don't know the details of this particular case, and I would hope (although even courts have difficulties with this) that justice is found in the courts. But I must say, the allegations make my stomach churn precisely because they don't seem unrealistic. I've heard stories and seen folks do things like this with the brazen presumption that no one would stop them. Sadly, they can be right to some extent. I've done what I can to put those situations to a stop (you can only really do it if executive leadership is on your side and also not rotten in the same way the toxic individual is), but the fact remains -- it's a problem, even if it's sometime subtle and hard to notice or do anything about.
hashberry 10y ago
What about "up-playing" rape? In an account of one of Jacob's assaults[0], the victim wrote: "he was rubbing my clit and rimming the edges of my vagina" and then below she wrote according to German law this is rape with a maximum of 10 years in prison. Was this torture and worse than murder? [0] https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees.html https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees....
- fl0wenol 10y ago
  No, it's just predatory, disgusting, and wrong. Five years.
- pyrale 10y ago
  For some it is. There's a reason suicide is much higher among victimes of rape.

kendallpark 10y ago

This one of the most disturbing pieces I've read on this topic. Disgusting. "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."

calibraxis 10y ago
Yep. Common as hell though. Not only do I know many who've explicitly told me about such attacks, but basic statistics indicates that many people we know have been attacked, regardless of them telling us. (Of course people often don't speak up when attacked, because the rest of us are generally complicit in maintaining that culture, for example shaming or silencing targets.)
- ultramancool 10y ago
  Has anyone actually put their real name on something saying they were personally attacked by him yet? Last I checked everything was just vague accusations, has this changed?
  - b33pr 10y ago
    My housemate dated him for a while. It's pretty much all true.
  - wiredfool 10y ago
    If I'm reading it right, violetblue. (and 9 others listed in one paragraph of the article)
    - camiller 10y ago
      This paragraph from the article: "More witnesses and stories have surfaced since. These include Bill Budington of the EFF, Micah Lee of the Intercept, Nick Farr, Quinn Norton, Leigh Honeywell, Alison Macrina, Andrea Shepard, Meredith Patterson, and Isis Agora Lovecruft."
      - 10y ago

893helios 10y ago

It's a bloody mess really. http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-...

pierrebai 10y ago
This link is really disturbing. The poster seems to go out of her way to frame all accusation against Jake Appelbaum as a setup to discredit him. She even begins with an apology that claiming that wikileaks and Assange are worthy of excusing him. Bascially, 'but he does good work'...! The text analysis reaslly outlines just how far people are going to try to drown and reject any allegation. Violet Blue's post contains dozens of precise allegations, with employer, locale, people and precise situations. Many of the incidents she describes can be verified, his getting fired and the emails. Yet, we're being served the same 'but he does good work.'
jamespo 10y ago
that's a very long-winded way of also saying "but he does good work"
- srtjstjsj 10y ago
  It's a long-winded way of saying that the anti-ioerror camp is led by a group that has logical inconsistencies and possible dishonesty throughout its accusations, is attacking the people it claims to be trying to get justice for, and is scortched-earth inviting harassment upon uninvolved people who happen to live in ioerror's building.
  - jamespo 10y ago
    The "anti-ioerror camp" is not a single group, the idiots attacking the building have very little support I would imagine.

moon_of_moon 10y ago

I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something wrong, file charges, instead of this one sided character assassination. Aside: Listen kids, dont live in fear. Its better to burn out than to fade away.

TheGirondin 10y ago
Excellent analysis on that here: http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-... It seems we have going through a regression where extrajudicial mob justice is becoming acceptable again.

peterwwillis 10y ago

> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers. So, again, this was basically personal power within an in-group. It can happen in literally any in-group, because it's a social dynamic, and social dynamics don't follow the ethos of an organization, they follow human heuristics. The "stories" make for juicy reading, but the details of this case aren't special. Jake's is one of the most blatant, obvious, ongoing examples i've heard of, but similar situations happen in a variety of ways, usually far less obvious. Since the hacker scene is very much an exclusive in-group of outsiders, this kind of person is much more accepted there. But you'll still find these kinds of situations everywhere.

js8 10y ago

I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. People are human, and sometimes they are complicated, and can do good and bad at the same time.

gnaritas 10y ago
> I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. What on earth are you talking about? > If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a business context is absolutely someone who needs to be completely ostracized, this is an abusive person with some serious disorder who should have been fired the first time that happened. That is not ever OK.
- TheGirondin 10y ago
  It depends on you worldview, if you find extrajudicial mob justice acceptable or if you believe in rule of law.
  - gnaritas 10y ago
    Firing someone for inappropriate abusive behavior is not remotely mob justice. Mob justice would be dragging him into a back alley and cutting his balls off. Do you see the difference? I'm guessing you don't since you're repeating your "mob justice" comment several times over.
  - andrewvc 10y ago
    Extrajudicial mob justice is killing someone who you think is a murderer. Firing someone because of their behavior does not require a court of law (though they can challenge it in court). Banning someone from a community function does not require a trial, nor should it. If you act like an asshole, don't be surprised if people don't want to be around you. That part of the situation is not a matter for the courts. The rape, however, is a matter for the courts.

DanBC 10y ago

It's really important that we understand why it's hard for people to stand up against abuse. It's very easy to say "I would", and maybe you would, but we see time and time again that it's hard for people to make that stand.

m_t 10y ago
I don't know why your comment seems downvoted. I think it is a very valid question. How, as an employer, as a community, can we make sure negative or abusive behaviour is dealt with correctly?
stevetrewick 10y ago
I cannot believe this is getting down voted. What the hell HN? Would anyone care to explain their reasoning? What the OP said is not even remotely controversial.

gooseyard 10y ago

If a guy like this were to get a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis, what do you suppose it'd be? Not that I feel bad for the guy, mind you, rather I feel it'd be helpful to the community of people who have been affected by this kind of behavior to have an accurate name for it other than just saying the guy is a douchebag. I knew a guy in college who had some aspects of this guy's behavior and was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (tragically, he fully embraced his condition), but I only have an armchair knowledge of psychiatry and I'd be interested to hear what somebody with experience has to say about it.

tehrei 10y ago
It isn't really a disorder, it's just a kind of personality. It's pretty much par for the course of simply being human. A good shrink should be able to get him to function with people who don't see things as the does, but there isn't anything wrong with him per se.
salmon30salmon 10y ago
It is generally considered inappropriate for a mental health practitioner to offer a diagnosis without formally seeing the patient in question, so I doubt that someone who has the knowledge to make an assessment would take the leap and breach protocol. It would surely be interesting though.
dpark 10y ago
There's a whole spectrum of personality disorders, including narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopathy). Any of these and maybe others could be diagnosed. Or maybe none and this guy (based on the alleged behaviors) is just a terrible person with no diagnosable disorder.
musha68k 10y ago
I can recommend Pieter Hintjens' "Psychopath Code" if you want to learn more on how human/social predators operate: http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths Edit: I neither know the accused nor the writer of that piece, I just wanted to share that there's lots of layers to reality and that this book was eye-opening to me in that regard.

tehrei 10y ago

I like how moon_of_moon's comment got flagged the second he posted it, real good work silencing discussion like that, guys. Relatedly, it's a bit sad what's happening to him. A few decades ago, he would have just been "that guy who makes the racy jokes" at an all-male shop, but over time our laissez-faire anything-goes culture has been taken over and thrust into a rather more corporate world, filled with people for whom our words that used to be simply racy are now akin to being stabbed through the heart. Such is the price of progress, I guess. I would suggest the companies mandating that people like him receive councelling, so they can function in today's diverse environments, but it feels really creepy for the company itself to be sending you to a mental health professional.

danso 10y ago

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And because of that, I don't believe that things are ever as simple "if something is wrong, file charges" -- just like it's never as easy as "if you love someone, put a ring on it." I'll likely have the privilege of never having to file charges for rape, but once I had to file charges as a victim of armed robbery. Even though I had plenty of evidence, in hand and forthcoming (Android location tracing)...I had a hell of a time convincing a detective that I wasn't faking a robbery for insurance purposes, just because I wasn't clear exactly what block i was on when it happened. I can't even fucking imagine what it is like convincing the system that sexual assault (or even harassment) has happened, but I imagine the friction is enough to deter people from taking necessary action until it's too late. It seems that some of these victims are able to talk themselves out of thinking that a colleague truly did wrong, and when others step up, they realize their mistake in being quiet.

mordocai 10y ago
Not to mention that this guy would apparently blackmail and/or destroy you if you tried to spread the word (no mention of filing charges that I saw, but I imagine a similar story).
dantillberg 10y ago
Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough. ----- Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here: - Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police? - Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did you work together? Will you possibly see social retaliation from the thief's allies for reporting their behavior? - Does everyone involved, including the thief and the police, agree on what defines acceptable/legal behavior, or are you going to be argue with the police and others that just because you wore a sexy dress didn't mean that you "wanted" someone to steal your phone?

adwn 10y ago

> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers. I see no dichotomy whatsoever. In fact, I would even say that individuals and organizations that pursue a "higher calling" (in this case, freedom from governmental authority) are more willing to sacrifice some less-valued members for the higher good – as evidenced by statements like "But he does good work". Besides, not everyone who belongs to an ideological organization is in it for the ideology; some are there for the power and influence they can achieve from rising through the ranks. Judging by the descriptions given in this article, Jacob Appelbaum appears quite power hungry and manipulative.

vkazanov 10y ago
I believe this is true for all organisations implying hierarchy, explicit (big enterprises) or implicit (as in hacker communities): some people join the ranks only to be able to enjoy domination at the top of the pyramid.

serg_chernata 10y ago

I am completely on her side and this dude seems sketchy. However, Macrina's story mentioned in a different article[0] sounded very very strange to me. I simply don't understand how Macrina, a working professional adult, can follow that kind of logic. To me it simply sounds like she made a mistake and now regrets it. [0] - http://gizmodo.com/another-woman-has-accused-jacob-appelbaum-of-sexual-ass-1782035625 http://gizmodo.com/another-woman-has-accused-jacob-appelbaum...

dTal 10y ago
It sounds scarily real to be. Being manipulated is a thing, and this ticks all the boxes: she was tired/hungover, he wouldn't take no for an answer, he continued talking about mundane stuff to maintain an atmosphere of normality even while applying strong pressure, she only found the strength to resist after being dragged (literally!) outside of her comfort zone. It rings very true and does not sound like the kind of story someone would make up for attention.

HarryHirsch 10y ago

Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.

zellyn 10y ago
Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by: - making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community - publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior - setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've missed some.
- zellyn 10y ago
  Publicizing a way of reporting behavior would have ensured that there was a central, cumulative record of bad behavior, instead of anecdotal and diffuse understanding of the problem.
- HarryHirsch 10y ago
  Storytime: Sometime ago had materials stolen by a student who felt the need to get back at me. The kid did have a lengthy record of erratic behaviour, and I did report the incident to police. It caused great displeasure within the department, because the parents were wealthy and possible donors. I'm convinced that the student handbook prevents non-sexual harassment of staff, and it's equally true that police and HR are the go-to contacts for that type of incident. The employee and student manuals are the applicable codes of conduct. It's true that the workplace owns the problem now, and that there can be a pattern established (and one for myself as well), but come again about the incredible helpfulness! The world isn't black and white, and groups value peace, but they also value money and presenting a united front. The often value the latter two more than the peace of a fellow at the bottom of the totem pole.
  - 10y ago

camperman 10y ago

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

chaz72 10y ago
No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.
  - mordocai 10y ago
    Unfortunately, not doing this is a good way to end up in a situation like outlined in the blog post. There isn't an easy answer here.
    - ultramancool 10y ago
      Certainly, I'm just trying to argue against the overly simplistic view.
  - chaz72 10y ago
    A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.

moon_of_moon 10y ago

Reposting, because at this point two other comments have referenced this flagged comment, therefore it probably has value: "I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something wrong, file charges, instead of this one sided character assassination. Aside: Listen kids, dont live in fear. Its better to burn out than to fade away." Edit: I'd like to add -- this does not seem to be a situation where someone in power is abusing authority. Its peer to peer.

pjc50 10y ago
Reflagging the comment, because it's wrong in predictable ways. Firstly, the conspiracy-theory reference to "establishment-mandated"; and secondly peer-to-peer situations are quite full enough of power relations. Especially as between men and women.
- moon_of_moon 10y ago
  Dear establishment, When you see a talented programmer as a threat, help him start a company and buy him out, instead of resorting to this kind of behaviour. I think I see what this is about... https://github.com/ioerror https://github.com/ioerror
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    Why would you reward such a person.

epberry 10y ago

Wow this is messed up. This guy is clearly a predator and it's pretty shocking that he was able to operate in this way for so long. As much as women can be marginalized and harassed at tech companies I can easily see how the problem could be much worse with organizations like the Tor Project or Wikileaks that don't necessarily have professional management. > These are causes, not just jobs or consulting gigs. They are symbols for fighting injustice, and crusading for those at risk of exploitation. Their reputations are fraught and fragile. To attack a person in them is to attack the movement. They are also male-dominated organizations, in the male-dominated realm of hacking, where very few of the men are willing to accept that their hacker heroes, team bosses, and conference buddies might be doing really, really fucked up things to women. Above was the passage that struck me the most and seems like the most contributing factor for Jake's inexplicably long tenure. When you are constantly under attack by the powers that be it might seem rational to brush aside accusations against one of your most prominent members and plow ahead. Obviously this was a disastrous decision, both for the women involved and the organization. EDIT: a word.

auvrw 10y ago
yea, it's strangely counterintuitive: the politics of tor are non-mainstream, but in a potentially positive way. yet, that left the door open for seriously negative sociopolitical issues. is that the tl;dr of the parent post? anyway, i don't care what "league" this guy is in. wouldn't want to be around behavior like that. > what about the reality where Hitler cured cancer, Morty? it's best not to think about it.
musha68k 10y ago
I don't know if it is clear as I know neither of the persons involved (do you?). What seems ever clearer to me though is that many of the organizations/movements we look up to employ and attract certain kinds of people amongst which you'd probably find quite a few psychopaths as well (maybe even more so with "causes"). Do we need to fight fire with fire? If so, how can we keep our "beneficial" predators (?!) in check (?!?!) insofar as to steer them towards "just doing their job" by concentrating their pernicious powers on the psychopathic bodies (people, organizations, skynet..) we need to be fighting? If not, let's all level-up and fend them off - people involved with "causes" especially - hierarchies and secrets are the breeding ground for psychopaths as per Hintjens "Power Pyramids vs. Living Systems": http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter2.html http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter2.html http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths

infodroid 10y ago

Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate? I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct. It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts. It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters. The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing to the profession.

MollyR 10y ago
Probably because people have been encouraged to think of coworkers as friends or family. My personal suspicion is simply the rise of social media enables mob like behavior over due process and rule of law.
- incongruity 10y ago
  And, I'd bet some of that encouragement happens because work-life balance is non-existent in many places and/or many people in tech simply don't have a deep social network outside of work because they tend to be younger/unmarried/relocated, etc.
pjc50 10y ago
Other industries do it in the old news media instead. And this isn't quite so much "industry" as "activism". If it were a professional setting, there would be an HR process to deal with it.
misiti3780 10y ago
i have been wondering this exact same thing too. this seems like it is isolated mostly to the tech community.
deleted 10y ago
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clavalle 10y ago

Perhaps I am being stereotypically Texan here, but sometimes I wish there was space in our legal and ethical system to kick someone's ass for behavior that doesn't reach the level of provable criminality but that still calls for more than a sharp rebuke, public shaming, or ostracism. Our current status quo of 'violence is never the answer' seems to give assholes a bit too much wiggle room to make the rest of us suffer.

jessaustin 10y ago
In many jurisdictions, that space does exist, because cops and prosecutors are comfortable "looking the other way" when it's clear there is a reason to do so. It is to Texas's credit that much of that state is such a jurisdiction, but in fact much of the fly-over country is. Of course, a fake-ass "anarchist" like Applebaum might file a civil suit for a well-deserved ass-kicking, but that's still sunlight.
- srtjstjsj 10y ago
  fake?
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Anarchism is a principled opposition to arbitrary authority. The behavior described in TFA is totally unprincipled grasping at any position of unearned dominance that could facilitate the gratification of selfish desires. It's difficult to imagine a person of this low character cheerfully accepting the personal autonomy of other humans he perceived as lower in power.
- ElComradio 10y ago
  This is one of the many reasons why Texas is filled to the brim with happy and well adjusted people.
  - clavalle 10y ago
    As compared to where, California?

smoyer 10y ago

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men who are willing to speak out against them, and an ocean of those who don't want to be involved in the middle, only a mere whisper of voices are countering those who, to be honest, tend to be the loud-mouth, misbehaving misogynists. It's time for the gentlemen to step up their game. <PROCLAMATION> If you're being harassed, sexually or otherwise, within my earshot, I will take action to stop it. I'm not offering hugs of consolation but rather to stand between you and the abuse. I will protect you (potentially a stranger) as I would a member of family or any of my close friends. Those of us with spouses, daughters (and sons) want safe places for them to work too! I originally wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." but realize there are many cases where a bully is harassing someone who shares their gender. And in the corporate world, there are always predators taking credit for others work (according to recent studies, it's the psychopaths that rise to the top). I've had a long career in technology, and in theory have enough of a reputation that I can afford to spend some political capital. I think the younger men who are "just starting out" have a bigger voice than they realize, but they need to band together. Let's take back the organizations that have degraded to this point ... when there's nowhere left for people like Applebaum to work, I still won't feel sorry for him. What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? </PROCLAMATION>

MrZongle2 10y ago
"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it....God, I'm tired of being painted with a broad brush (in general, I'm not implying that smoyer did so) and told that I'm part of the problem. The finger-waggling can get quite grating if you're just trying to do your best day-to-day without being a dick to anybody. I suspect there are quite a few guys in the same boat who don't have issues with anybody due to their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation but are dealing with "chastisement fatigue". Edit: What, I'm the villain for agreeing with the parent post but complaining about being painted with a broad brush? What the hell is wrong with some of you?

pwenzel 10y ago

> CULT OF THE DEAD COW is known for a lot of things, but treating people horribly is not one of them. If communities are to thrive and remain relevant we have to do some housecleaning from time to time. As we have become aware of the anonymous accusations of sexual assault, as well as the stories told by individuals we know and trust, we’ve decided to remove Jake from the herd effective immediately. http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/2016/06/cult-of-the-dead-cow-statement-on-jacob-appelbaum-ioerror.html http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/2016/06/cult-of-the-dead-cow-s...

moon_of_moon 10y ago

Applebaum's side of the story: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1soorlp

deleted 10y ago
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kemayo 10y ago
The article links to that, and also to this "decoding" of it: https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.4oh9b8jgo https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...
- moon_of_moon 10y ago
  Why decode it? Take it at face value: "I want to be clear: the accusations of criminal sexual misconduct against me are entirely false." "I’ve dedicated my life as a journalist, activist, and longtime member of the Tor Project to advocating for the transparency of public processes and to speaking out about the necessity of privacy, security, and anonymity. These are ideals that I will continue to uphold, despite the vicious campaign that is currently being waged against me." This guy spent two years in foster care when he was a kid. That kind of adversity, in my opinion, rears character.
  - kemayo 10y ago
    I think the point the "decoder" is making is that his denial is very carefully worded, and even taking him completely at face value, "I didn't do anything bad enough that I should be arrested for it" is a long way from "I didn't do anything wrong, and shouldn't be removed from this community".
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      It reminds one of that episode of Dresden Codak in which Kim reacts to slanderous online articles: KR: I'm not a criminal; I've never even been convicted of a felony in this state! BB: That's an oddly specific phrasing.

Bartweiss 10y ago

Can anyone fill me in on more details of the Snowden connection there? The rest of this article is quite thorough, and this topic certainly deserves more public discussion of what went wrong and what should be done in the future. Obviously this episode should unsettle those who have concluded that the claims are true, and even those who are uncertain should take a look at how these issues circulated for so long without being brought to a head. The Snowden comment, though, confused me. Appelbaum accepted an award on his behalf, but as far as I knew that's about the extend of it. CCC and Assange have been tied into the community for long enough to have heard these things, and I can understand the comment about how they should have vetted Appelbaum. Snowden (to my knowledge) had no real connections in this community, and Appelbaum only stepped up to bask in his glow once he was in hiding and largely restricted from 'vetting' others. There might be questions about why no one else who knew the claims stepped in, but barring more evidence I have trouble with the claim that Snowden has something to answer for. I don't want to push too hard on one off-hand comment in a much larger piece, but I've already seen this used as ammunition to discredit Snowden: "If his actions are so good, why did he have anything to do with Appelbaum?" It seems like a bad meme to spread without some explanation of why he should have known about as-yet-unpublicized accusations.

shasta 10y ago

Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" but rather "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him up to his room so maybe his claims that it was consensual are true." I get that you don't want police to blame the victim, but isn't it just as/more important that they correctly figure out who the victim is?

panic 10y ago
What someone is wearing has nothing to do with consent.
- shasta 10y ago
  Your claim is that P(consent | sexy clothes) = P(consent | not sexy clothes)? Seems counterintuitive. Do you have evidence to support this claim?
- threatofrain 10y ago
  If the prosecution, in anticipation of defense strategy, believes that what a person is wearing, among a collection of facts, may be utilized by defense, then of course it's to prosecution advantage to have the police ask first on their terms, as opposed to letting the defense ask these questions on their terms. That way the police and prosecution can control the progression of fact discovery. It's because prosecutors understand factors to legal victory that clothing, drug use, prior relationship with defendant, and other things like that are relevant. Speaking descriptively, the job of the police is not to act as some neutral 3rd party of justice and investigate all claims of the truth in proportion to their merit. It is the secondary job of the police to set up cases for the prosecution without regard for defense interests. It is the primary job of all agencies ever to manage organizational credibility, robustness, and scope.
  - 10y ago

fhood 10y ago

Sometimes the hardest part about dealing with people like this is that they seem to have multiple personalities. Thus a person that to me (white male) seems like a great guy, may not be that same person at all when they interact with others (women or minorities for instance). It can be really difficult to reconcile the person you know with the person that other people are interacting with, and when glimpses of this less pleasant personality show through in casual comments and the like, it is all too easy to write them off as jokes, because no one wants to believe that their friend is a bad person.

ScottBurson 10y ago
Such a person wouldn't necessarily even be abusive to all women. They tend to choose the most vulnerable as their victims. In this case we've seen a group of women publish a statement saying "Appelbaum never treated us like that" [0]. Well, it's nice that he wasn't a jerk to absolutely every woman he ever met, but that really doesn't prove anything at all. (At least the statement is fairly carefully worded so as not to dismiss the possibility that Appelbaum harmed others... but I still have to wonder if it was a good thing that they published it.) [0] https://ourresponse.org/ https://ourresponse.org/

_greim_ 10y ago

Setting aside for the moment the facts of this particular case, I thought the article makes a good point in general. > When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed.

simula67 10y ago

Does the flags on the comments affect if the story itself get flagged ?

srtjstjsj 10y ago

> I turned to Jake and said, “I think you have me confused with a certain blonde blogger,” Who is that referring to? Is the audience supposed to know, or was that in inside reference

jessaustin 10y ago
It might not have referred to anyone. She was trying to derail his bullshit, not have an engaging conversation.

throvwavvay 10y ago

What is the point of having a trial by media like this? If we want social change, could we first define the requirement for trial by media? We got statements from the accusers. We got statement from the accused. We got statement from people who are not victims but claim to speak for them (ie prosecutors). We got people who are neither the accuser nor accused, but instead talks in favor/against a conviction (ie lawyers). We got a jury, ie all the comments here on HN and articles on media platforms. All that is missing from a real court is the unbiased judge who can specify the rules and finalize a judgement. For those 100+ comments in here, particular those that make a direct or implied judgement, do you think we should replace the court system by articles like this? The current justice system has problems. It requires time, energy, and often capital from victims. Sometimes the guilt gets away. Sometimes the innocent get locked up. There is a lot of fear of not being believed. A lot of self-doubt. Privacy is lost for both the accuser/victim and accused/perpetrator. Social relationships can be destroyed, and risk of retaliation is high. Trial by media really sound as a tempting solution, and all we need to give up seems to be that of a impartial judge and the rules. notes: Its fun to see the up and down votes in real time. 1->4->2->5->1->3. The Zero replies make for a interesting discussion.

33a 10y ago

Well. Now I'm disgusted and freaked out for the rest of the day.

srtjstjsj 10y ago

How did the Kink thing stay quiet so long? There you have a corporate situation, with real lawsuit money on the table, and (I expect) sympathetic management.

mcguire 10y ago

Well, there is a bright side to all this. Social engineering is still the easiest, most successful approach to breaking any security infrastructure. Intelligence agencies have a long history of using sexual-antic-related blackmail as a lever against their opponents. But if nobody cares, it becomes somewhat more difficult to apply the lever.

ihsw 10y ago

So why hasn't anyone smashed his face yet? Surely an insufferable sexual failure like Applebaum should've attracted that kind of attention. Did every single person -- every victim, bystander, and authority figure -- deftly slink away or obediently succumb to his forcible coercion? Maybe I'm just a violent individual with anger issues but I would've had no problem with physically correcting his behavior.

CGamesPlay 10y ago

All of the commentary here is hedging against this anonymous rape claim. What bothers me is that if we throw that argument out there is still clearly some huge injustice going on here. With this hook the commentators here are seeking to disarm the entire rest of the argument. The nail in the coffin for me was when the Tor leadership acknowledged the harassment evidence but allowed it to continue. That's inexcusable. The actual criminal allegations should be settled in court.

dpeterson 10y ago

Baaa, Jacob bad, baaa, baaaa, baaad: http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ http://theindicter.com/the-weaponising-of-social-part-1-the-...

adrusi 10y ago

This article presents evidence that Appelbaum was a creep, but theres a big gap between creep and rapist. Pseudonymous accusations don't make for very compelling evidence. Regardless, my intuition is inclined to accept his guilt, not that I, or almost any of the internet commenters, are really qualified to pass that judgement. But when these cases arise, I can't help but think how easy it would be to manufacture a rape scandal, especially against a charismatic man, especially if they're a creep. I would think that security-minded people would be the first to realize this, but alas. Every time there's a public reaction like this, with the accused being fired and publicly shamed before any rigorous investigation even begins, we show potential defamers that the strategy works. It's a hard problem, because we want to support victims, but we can't ignore the fact that the accused could be the greatest victim of all. We have to postpone judgement in cases like these, until stronger evidence emerges, else we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals. We can't let that get in the way of reporting on the case, but at least we shouldn't give any credance to crap like the "skewering" article refuting Appelbaum's denial [1] (what statement of denial would have convinced the author?) and we shouldn't be respecting statements like in the Wired article [2]: Shepard also says she’s spoken directly with one of Appelbaum’s alleged victims, who told Shepard in February of this year that Appelbaum had raped him or her. “Sadly… I think it’s the damn truth. He’s a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator,” Shepard writes to WIRED. “I absolutely believe the accusers.” He's a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator, therefore he raped this woman? Does muscularity implicate someone in a mugging? The fact that you spoke with someone who spoke with an alleged victim and they were convinced, is meaningless, considering how many people are convinced of Appelbaum's guilt without knowing almost anything about the case. [1] https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.gbx8qswsk https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060... [2] https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-resigns-amid-sex-abuse-claims/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-...

masmullin 10y ago
> we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals. I think this is an interesting concept and needs to be brought more to light.

NetTechM 10y ago

Well, if he did it, he deserves whatever the judge gives him. Seems like there is a ton of twitter drama surrounding this, which I tend to avoid so I'll leave it at that.

mhewett 10y ago

Some possibly useful advice: if I'm at a conference and someone I sort of know says, "This one speaker is being an ass. He's pestering me about another speaker." I'm like, "yeah, yeah that's part of being an organizer". But if that person says, "Can you help me? Bill Smith is harassing me." Now they've got my attention. In this case I don't know what the exact dialog was, but if you want help be sure to ask for it and state clearly why. People will respond more proactively.