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> Companies treat workers well because they have to compete to get them. Not because the government forces their hand. Hahahah, I'm sure companies like Sports

> Companies treat workers well because they have to compete to get them. Not because the government forces their hand. Hahahah, I'm sure companies like Sports Direct would love to hear that

UK-AL 10y ago
Yes. UK has well developed employment law compared to a lot of countries that's still heavily on the side of the employee in most cases. And yet there's still issues. There's always a way to fuck with you, no matter the laws. The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws. If you can leave freely and companies are dependent on your skills they won't screw you around. The problem is that laws that proclaim to be on side of the employees makes the labour market less competitive for employees. Look at france, they have have absurdly strong labour laws and their employment rate is awful because of this.
- PKop 10y ago
  And Spain http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-06-10/spain-economy-labor-laws/55507548/1 http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-06-10/s...
  - Oletros 10y ago
    In Spain there has not been rigid labor laws for years
- vertex-four 10y ago
  So which country in the world right now - or at any point in history - actually provides a system where any employee in the country can quit their job because they feel treated vaguely unfairly and expect to fall back on some sort of safety net, whether that's another job, education, or the dole? And then - how much does that cost the country? Frankly, some large amount of people get into terrible situations, and sometimes they do that no matter what help you give them. Therefore, unless somebody actively provides help to people when they're being fucked over by their workplace, you're always going to have a number of workers who simply don't have a choice - work for any number of companies that treat their employees badly, or starve. There's some countries which'll provide free higher education for some number of years, but AFAIK none will make sure your family don't starve while you're at it, and if you've already been through that and are still in a bad position... well, sucks to be you. We could eventually just say "if your employer is screwing you over, it's your fault", but that's not a wonderfully moral position to take IMHO, and can be used to justify all sorts of horrible things.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Quite a few European countries have or have had no-fault safety nets. Even in the UK it used to be possible to just go on the dole and stay there, to the extent that it was step 1 of the KLF's "how to write a number 1" (music hit) guide. That has changed in past decades but it used to be a critical part of the UK's working class music culture.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - DasIch 10y ago
    Germany does exactly that.
- RobertoG 10y ago
  "The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws." That doesn't agree with basic economics. At the end of the day, we are talking about a market. What determine how you are treated is supply and demand. If there is scarcity of skilled labour, skilled labour will be treated and paid well and unskilled labour bad. If there is general scarcity of labour, skilled and not skilled, that will be the moment to open the borders and leave immigrants come or start "structural reforms" that allow to get more job from the current workforce. If, due to politic reasons, that it's not possible, with an expensive workforce, necessarily, profit will go down. If profit goes down, investment will go down. If investment goes down, unemployment goes up and balance is restored with a recession or even a depression.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    You forget there is a division of labour. There is no lump of skilled labour. You can have tons of skilled labour, yet still have shortages in lots of different areas. Combine that with a higher overall demand. Overall it is productivity that drives wages.
    - RobertoG 10y ago
      "Overall it is productivity that drives wages." I have serious doubts about that. how does it work?
- slgeorge 10y ago
  This sentence: > The problem is that laws that proclaim to be on side of the employees > makes the labour market less competitive for employees. And, this sentence: > Look at france, they have have absurdly strong labour > laws and their employment rate is awful because of this. Are not necessarily connected. It's possible to be an employee in France with very good protection, but that other people won't have jobs. That may or may not be good for total employment, it is not prima facie bad for individual employees. You probably consider high employment rates to be more important than individual rights, other people may balance those two elements differently.
  - UK-AL 10y ago
    Nearly every country that has strong employment laws has higher levels of unemployment. You can argue all day about the possibilities. But empirically this is nearly always the case. I'm a pragmatist so I always what go for what is proven to work.
    - slgeorge 10y ago
      I understand your perspective, I probably even personally agree with you. But again, you're weighing the value of 'increased employment' over 'individual rights'. I currently live in France, and there are protests in the streets as many people here don't want their employment rights reduced. They value their individual rights, over the idea of there being more people employed. Consequently, it is not a universal rule that the benefit of 'increased employment' is worth the reduction in 'workers rights'. In these areas, it's often worth getting outside our own bubbles and exploring the fact that there are rational alternative approaches. Politics is messy.
- Oletros 10y ago
  > The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws. I would like to live in a world where that is true

> Companies treat workers well because they have to compete to get them. Not because the government forces their hand. Hahahah, I'm sure companies like Sports Direct would love to hear that

UK-AL 10y ago

Yes. UK has well developed employment law compared to a lot of countries that's still heavily on the side of the employee in most cases. And yet there's still issues. There's always a way to fuck with you, no matter the laws. The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws. If you can leave freely and companies are dependent on your skills they won't screw you around. The problem is that laws that proclaim to be on side of the employees makes the labour market less competitive for employees. Look at france, they have have absurdly strong labour laws and their employment rate is awful because of this.

PKop 10y ago
And Spain http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-06-10/spain-economy-labor-laws/55507548/1 http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-06-10/s...
- Oletros 10y ago
  In Spain there has not been rigid labor laws for years
vertex-four 10y ago
So which country in the world right now - or at any point in history - actually provides a system where any employee in the country can quit their job because they feel treated vaguely unfairly and expect to fall back on some sort of safety net, whether that's another job, education, or the dole? And then - how much does that cost the country? Frankly, some large amount of people get into terrible situations, and sometimes they do that no matter what help you give them. Therefore, unless somebody actively provides help to people when they're being fucked over by their workplace, you're always going to have a number of workers who simply don't have a choice - work for any number of companies that treat their employees badly, or starve. There's some countries which'll provide free higher education for some number of years, but AFAIK none will make sure your family don't starve while you're at it, and if you've already been through that and are still in a bad position... well, sucks to be you. We could eventually just say "if your employer is screwing you over, it's your fault", but that's not a wonderfully moral position to take IMHO, and can be used to justify all sorts of horrible things.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Quite a few European countries have or have had no-fault safety nets. Even in the UK it used to be possible to just go on the dole and stay there, to the extent that it was step 1 of the KLF's "how to write a number 1" (music hit) guide. That has changed in past decades but it used to be a critical part of the UK's working class music culture.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- DasIch 10y ago
  Germany does exactly that.
RobertoG 10y ago
"The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws." That doesn't agree with basic economics. At the end of the day, we are talking about a market. What determine how you are treated is supply and demand. If there is scarcity of skilled labour, skilled labour will be treated and paid well and unskilled labour bad. If there is general scarcity of labour, skilled and not skilled, that will be the moment to open the borders and leave immigrants come or start "structural reforms" that allow to get more job from the current workforce. If, due to politic reasons, that it's not possible, with an expensive workforce, necessarily, profit will go down. If profit goes down, investment will go down. If investment goes down, unemployment goes up and balance is restored with a recession or even a depression.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  You forget there is a division of labour. There is no lump of skilled labour. You can have tons of skilled labour, yet still have shortages in lots of different areas. Combine that with a higher overall demand. Overall it is productivity that drives wages.
  - RobertoG 10y ago
    "Overall it is productivity that drives wages." I have serious doubts about that. how does it work?
slgeorge 10y ago
This sentence: > The problem is that laws that proclaim to be on side of the employees > makes the labour market less competitive for employees. And, this sentence: > Look at france, they have have absurdly strong labour > laws and their employment rate is awful because of this. Are not necessarily connected. It's possible to be an employee in France with very good protection, but that other people won't have jobs. That may or may not be good for total employment, it is not prima facie bad for individual employees. You probably consider high employment rates to be more important than individual rights, other people may balance those two elements differently.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  Nearly every country that has strong employment laws has higher levels of unemployment. You can argue all day about the possibilities. But empirically this is nearly always the case. I'm a pragmatist so I always what go for what is proven to work.
  - slgeorge 10y ago
    I understand your perspective, I probably even personally agree with you. But again, you're weighing the value of 'increased employment' over 'individual rights'. I currently live in France, and there are protests in the streets as many people here don't want their employment rights reduced. They value their individual rights, over the idea of there being more people employed. Consequently, it is not a universal rule that the benefit of 'increased employment' is worth the reduction in 'workers rights'. In these areas, it's often worth getting outside our own bubbles and exploring the fact that there are rational alternative approaches. Politics is messy.
Oletros 10y ago
> The solution is make the economy competitive for labour, by encouraging growth and skills. They will treat you well then, regardless the laws. I would like to live in a world where that is true