4 ms·

> Unifying the voices of all people in Europe under one political entity doesn't zero out the playing field, but it may very well decrease the absurd order-of-m

by tomp 10y ago

> Unifying the voices of all people in Europe under one political entity doesn't zero out the playing field, but it may very well decrease the absurd order-of-magnitude scales of difference between political entities as these two juggernauts stomp inexorably towards their desired world order while the individual nations of Europe debate their own individual selfish interests. The fallacy is with "unifying the voices". EU definitely doesn't feel that way. E.g. in the handling of the Greek crisis, it's mainly the German voice that's heard, and the voice of IMF (not even part of the EU!) echoes softly in the background. Sure, you might argue that Germany is so much bigger/more prosperous/more powerful/better than Greece, for the EU to stick together, it must be beneficial to every single nation within it. It's easy to champion "solidarity" when it's mainly their solidarity for you, but not the other way around.

mpweiher 10y ago
Of course you have bickering, because you have different interests, just as with any group where number of members > 1. So if it doesn't feel that way, yes, because (a) you're looking at it from the inside and (b) we're not particularly integrated, yet.
- tomp 10y ago
  But the main question comes from (b) - will we ever be integrated? Ignoring Britain and the rest of non-Euro countries, Germany and their unwillingness to even consider a fiscal union seems to be the main stumbling block. Can you imagine the US government introducing capital controls only in Alabama?!
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    Huh? I am fairly certain that fiscal union was always the plan, not achievable politically, so left for later introduction when it became obviously necessary. Anyway, I don't buy that it's Germany that's blocking. Of course, fiscal union means giving up a good chunk of sovereignty, which is where many of the member states balk. Fiscal union is OK if it means we get money, not so OK if we are no longer allowed to spend any way we want.
PaulHoule 10y ago
This has a lot to do with it. The EU has mismanaged the Greek "Crisis" by not actually having a true crisis but rather having a crisis every six months. In a world where threats are coming from Russia, Syria, etc. it would be in in the interest of Europe to have Greece be stable and they really should have made everybody feel some pain, write off part of the debt, and take the punch bowl away.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  The biggest threats to the EU are not external, but internal. In a nutshell: - not enough buy-in of the population - too much corruption - too many languages - too many EU politicians getting 'money for nothing' (further reducing buy-in) - too many countries that slip their own protectionist measures in under the radar and get away with it - no unified tax system - way too many horses pulling in different directions at once And we don't have a slavery problem to get rid of so there most likely will not be a unification by force happening any time soon.
  - kennell 10y ago
    + massive bureaucracy How anyone can write a 4 page essay on the EU without mentioning the absurd bureaucracy and regulatory hell it has introduced to small businesses is beyond me. People outside of Europe may not be aware of how bad it really is, so just let me point you to the perhaps most prominent example, the "Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumber" [1]. Let me pull some money quotes from the text: - "Slightly crooked cucumbers may have a maximum height of the arc of 20 mm per 10 cm of length of the cucumber." - "Cucumbers grown in the open must weigh 180 g or more. Cucumbers grown under protection must weigh 250 g or more. Moreover, 'Extra' Class and Class I cucumbers grown under protection weighing: 500 g or more must be not less than 30 cm long, between 250 and 500 g must be not less than 25 cm long." [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677&from=DE http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...
    - chrisseaton 10y ago
k__ 10y ago
The question is, what is good for the others? Germany has the biggest population and the most wealth. The smallest countries seem to do well, too.
- tomp 10y ago
  My answer: all or nothing, not something in-between like now. Either disintegrate the currency union, possibly Schengen as well, and let each country govern itself as it sees fit (seemed to work quite well 20 or so years ago) - simply by the virtue of common European heritage and values (at least compared to the rest of the world - China, US, Muslim countries), we'll end up collaborating quite well. Or establish a United States of Europe, where the federal government takes care of the budget (no more "Greece defaulting" and "Cypriot capital controlls"), military (no more "UK intervention in Syria") and probably a few other things. Of course, to implement this, we need to agree on a common set of values from the beginning, which IMO we should model on Germany/Switzerland/Denmark (i.e. direct democracy, strong military but non-interventionism abroad, publicly-funded schools and healthcare but allow private services as well, strong consumer and environmental protections, flexible employment but with a strong social net). Personally, I'd add freedom of speech and the right to self-determination (secession) as well, but most of Europe seems quite opposed to that...
prof_hobart 10y ago
The UK doesn't feel that way either. The country is largely run by, and for, a small sliver of our society and does little to help vast swathes of it.

by tomp 10y ago

mpweiher 10y ago

Of course you have bickering, because you have different interests, just as with any group where number of members > 1. So if it doesn't feel that way, yes, because (a) you're looking at it from the inside and (b) we're not particularly integrated, yet.

tomp 10y ago
But the main question comes from (b) - will we ever be integrated? Ignoring Britain and the rest of non-Euro countries, Germany and their unwillingness to even consider a fiscal union seems to be the main stumbling block. Can you imagine the US government introducing capital controls only in Alabama?!
- mpweiher 10y ago
  Huh? I am fairly certain that fiscal union was always the plan, not achievable politically, so left for later introduction when it became obviously necessary. Anyway, I don't buy that it's Germany that's blocking. Of course, fiscal union means giving up a good chunk of sovereignty, which is where many of the member states balk. Fiscal union is OK if it means we get money, not so OK if we are no longer allowed to spend any way we want.

PaulHoule 10y ago

This has a lot to do with it. The EU has mismanaged the Greek "Crisis" by not actually having a true crisis but rather having a crisis every six months. In a world where threats are coming from Russia, Syria, etc. it would be in in the interest of Europe to have Greece be stable and they really should have made everybody feel some pain, write off part of the debt, and take the punch bowl away.

jacquesm 10y ago
The biggest threats to the EU are not external, but internal. In a nutshell: - not enough buy-in of the population - too much corruption - too many languages - too many EU politicians getting 'money for nothing' (further reducing buy-in) - too many countries that slip their own protectionist measures in under the radar and get away with it - no unified tax system - way too many horses pulling in different directions at once And we don't have a slavery problem to get rid of so there most likely will not be a unification by force happening any time soon.
- kennell 10y ago
  + massive bureaucracy How anyone can write a 4 page essay on the EU without mentioning the absurd bureaucracy and regulatory hell it has introduced to small businesses is beyond me. People outside of Europe may not be aware of how bad it really is, so just let me point you to the perhaps most prominent example, the "Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumber" [1]. Let me pull some money quotes from the text: - "Slightly crooked cucumbers may have a maximum height of the arc of 20 mm per 10 cm of length of the cucumber." - "Cucumbers grown in the open must weigh 180 g or more. Cucumbers grown under protection must weigh 250 g or more. Moreover, 'Extra' Class and Class I cucumbers grown under protection weighing: 500 g or more must be not less than 30 cm long, between 250 and 500 g must be not less than 25 cm long." [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31988R1677&from=DE http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...
  - chrisseaton 10y ago

k__ 10y ago

The question is, what is good for the others? Germany has the biggest population and the most wealth. The smallest countries seem to do well, too.

tomp 10y ago
My answer: all or nothing, not something in-between like now. Either disintegrate the currency union, possibly Schengen as well, and let each country govern itself as it sees fit (seemed to work quite well 20 or so years ago) - simply by the virtue of common European heritage and values (at least compared to the rest of the world - China, US, Muslim countries), we'll end up collaborating quite well. Or establish a United States of Europe, where the federal government takes care of the budget (no more "Greece defaulting" and "Cypriot capital controlls"), military (no more "UK intervention in Syria") and probably a few other things. Of course, to implement this, we need to agree on a common set of values from the beginning, which IMO we should model on Germany/Switzerland/Denmark (i.e. direct democracy, strong military but non-interventionism abroad, publicly-funded schools and healthcare but allow private services as well, strong consumer and environmental protections, flexible employment but with a strong social net). Personally, I'd add freedom of speech and the right to self-determination (secession) as well, but most of Europe seems quite opposed to that...

prof_hobart 10y ago

The UK doesn't feel that way either. The country is largely run by, and for, a small sliver of our society and does little to help vast swathes of it.