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"They have a mass-murderer, Breivik. They have a wonderful rehab program... If they believe he is rehabilitated, and his sentence is over, then he will be relea

by whack 10y ago

"They have a mass-murderer, Breivik. They have a wonderful rehab program... If they believe he is rehabilitated, and his sentence is over, then he will be released." I'm glad you bring up this example. There are 2 conditions here for his being released: 1) They have to believe that he is rehabilitated. 2) He has served his minimum sentence, which in his case, is 10 years. There is no reason to believe that 1) cannot happen at an earlier point in time, compared to 2). Ie, he might be considered to be rehabilitated after spending just 4 years in prison. According to the Norwegian justice system which you're holding up as a role model, he would then be forced to spend another 6 years in prison, even though he's already been rehabilitated by then. If you don't believe in punitive punishment, then why do we need 2) at all? Why should Breivik be given any minimum sentence at all? Why shouldn't he be released as soon as officials believe him to be rehabilitated, no matter how quickly that may occur? Are you really going to endorse such a reform which will allow murderers to be released, as soon as they are rehabilitated, no matter how soon that may occur? If you answered yes to that question, I refer you to the outrage over the following: http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/06/us/sexual-assault-brock-turner-stanford/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/06/us/sexual-assault-brock-turner... If you answered no to that question, then you too believe in punitive punishment, even though you may not like to admit it. The only question remaining, is what form that punitive punishment should take. You seem to believe that the best form of punitive punishment is locking someone up in prison for many years/decades. I believe that the best form of punitive punishment is taking all of the unpleasantness that the prison sentence is designed to inflict, and compressing it over a shorter time period, so that the prisoner can move on with his life as soon as possible.

dalke 10y ago
> "If you don't believe in punitive punishment" Please define "punitive". According to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punitive http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punitive there are two meanings: Definition #1: "intended to punish someone or something". I'm for that. But c'mon, a fine for $1 is a punishment. An order to stay away from someone else is a punishment. Is that what you mean by punitive punishment? Definition #2: "extremely or unfairly severe or high". I'm against that. I don't believe in cruel and unusual punishment. Like caning. I don't believe in inhumane punishment. Like most prisons in the US. Just because I am against "extremely or unfairly severe or high" punishment doesn't mean I am for no punishment. I can still be for moderate or measured punishment. Which I am. > "The only question remaining what form that punitive punishment should take" I do not agree with "extremely or unfairly severe or high punishment", no. As the essay points out, some people are much more affected by certain forms of punishment than others. The "extremely or unfairly" may be hard to determine. This is why Breivik is allowed to plea for a change of his conditions. This is indeed a question. It's a well studied question, with a long history and associated court cases from multiple jurisdictions. But as I complained, the essay ignores the existing concept of "cruel an unusual punishment", and makes things up out of whole cloth - literally, by positing a new culture which just happens to reproduce the US prison system and also happens to consider caning as something other than "cruel and unusual."
- dalke 10y ago
  P.S. Caning doesn't solve everything, even in Singapore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor... > Capital punishment is legal in Singapore. The city-state had the second highest per-capita execution rate in the world between 1994 and 1998 Including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore... : > The statute's penal provisions are draconian by most nations' standards, providing for long terms of imprisonment, caning, and capital punishment. If caning is so effective, why is there also capital punishment? Surely that will take away decades of the "prime" years of someone's life. Like Van Tuong Nguyen, killed at age 25 for drug trafficking.

by whack 10y ago

dalke 10y ago

> "If you don't believe in punitive punishment" Please define "punitive". According to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punitive http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punitive there are two meanings: Definition #1: "intended to punish someone or something". I'm for that. But c'mon, a fine for $1 is a punishment. An order to stay away from someone else is a punishment. Is that what you mean by punitive punishment? Definition #2: "extremely or unfairly severe or high". I'm against that. I don't believe in cruel and unusual punishment. Like caning. I don't believe in inhumane punishment. Like most prisons in the US. Just because I am against "extremely or unfairly severe or high" punishment doesn't mean I am for no punishment. I can still be for moderate or measured punishment. Which I am. > "The only question remaining what form that punitive punishment should take" I do not agree with "extremely or unfairly severe or high punishment", no. As the essay points out, some people are much more affected by certain forms of punishment than others. The "extremely or unfairly" may be hard to determine. This is why Breivik is allowed to plea for a change of his conditions. This is indeed a question. It's a well studied question, with a long history and associated court cases from multiple jurisdictions. But as I complained, the essay ignores the existing concept of "cruel an unusual punishment", and makes things up out of whole cloth - literally, by positing a new culture which just happens to reproduce the US prison system and also happens to consider caning as something other than "cruel and unusual."

dalke 10y ago
P.S. Caning doesn't solve everything, even in Singapore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor... > Capital punishment is legal in Singapore. The city-state had the second highest per-capita execution rate in the world between 1994 and 1998 Including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_(Singapore... : > The statute's penal provisions are draconian by most nations' standards, providing for long terms of imprisonment, caning, and capital punishment. If caning is so effective, why is there also capital punishment? Surely that will take away decades of the "prime" years of someone's life. Like Van Tuong Nguyen, killed at age 25 for drug trafficking.