8 ms·

The real purpose of this app isn't the rating system, that's just the hook to get people to run this app and point the camera out their dashboards. The real pur

by kylec 10y ago

The real purpose of this app isn't the rating system, that's just the hook to get people to run this app and point the camera out their dashboards. The real purpose is to crowdsource collecting data about the drivers on the road in order to sell that data to interested parties.

frgewut 10y ago
I can imagine a lot of applications for these types of systems: identifying undercover traffic police cars, finding whether someone is following you, identifying friend's cars (similar to FB's "Share your location") People would love such systems (and I'm afraid our privacy is gone for good).
- golergka 10y ago
  This debate happens on HN again and again, but still: what privacy are you talking about in public space? Nobody has a problem with one person with a dashcam — why suddenly connecting these dashcams to a network that shares information is a problem?
  - corobo 10y ago
    > shares information Probably that bit
    - golergka 10y ago
      OK, so if I record a particular driver being an asshole on the street and then put this recording on Youtube as an individual, I would be wrong?
      - chopin 10y ago
        Yes
      - mcbrettsy 10y ago
        If you create a database of license plates (profiles) of all cars on the road along with their whereabouts and behavior at any given time, and then sell this information to the highest bidder.... you would be a bit wrong.
      - adrianN 10y ago
        In Germany at least you could get into serious trouble. Dashcams are a grey area in German law. The consensus seems to be currently that they're okay for personal use, but making the video public certainly puts you at risk of a lawsuit.
      - kabouseng 10y ago
        Absolutely, since it would amount to trial by media, where a person is found guilty / slandered as an asshole with no avenue to defend his position / state his case. What if he was driving like an asshole because he was speeding to the hospital or similar reasons?
        chillingeffect 10y ago
        Exactly. The crux of prejudice is that it makes people form an opinion before they have facts a.k.a. context. A lot of things are not what they seem at first and because people respond to well to "Occam's Razor," they choose the laziest explanation and penalize people they don't know. A real-life example: my friend was dating a woman whose brother got in an accident. After receiving painkillers, he became addicted to them (an old story at this point). As he weened himself off of them, taking responsibility, my friend would drive him to get methadone a few times a week. A system that uses information from this one would label my friend an addict because he was so often seen driving to or parked at the rehab clinic. When in fact, my friend was a charitable, stand-up guy helping out a soon-to-be family member recover and become a stronger, productive member of society.
        seanp2k2 10y ago
        Just like credit scores. Their models aren't perfect, but the threshold for useful (for their benefit) is much lower, and profitable lower still. Since you're the product being sold and they're OK with many defects, and given that there are no financial consequences for you getting rolled up in a bad / inaccurate / predatory model, they don't care and aren't incentivized to fix it (and in fact in many cases are incentivized financially to keep it broken, since "hits" like that can be a selling point).
  - peylix 10y ago
    Maybe it has to do with the fact that they're recording all license plates they see, regardless of what they're doing or if they did anything wrong. They will in fact know where you are and what your driving habits are. Apart from your driving behavior, this is surely also going to be something they're going to want to sell to various companies that would find this interesting.
  - allanb 10y ago
    "No one has a problem with strangers seing you on the street, but suddenly when some guy follows you around with a camera it's a problem?" looking -> recording -> sharing These are all different things and our behaviour will and should change at each step.
    - noonespecial 10y ago
      More than that really. If every stranger who sees you on the street can (or worse, automatically does) instantly share that they saw you to a giant database that can then be easily searched it changes the act of "seeing". Now you can be virtually followed at any time by anyone anywhere who can use the database. No one can be drowned by a raindrop. A flood is another matter.
  - JulianMorrison 10y ago
    Doing things at scale is different. Qualitatively, not just quantitatively. This has been the consistent lesson of big data and the modern internet.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Citing the U. S. Privacy Study Commission, The real danger is the gradual erosion of individual liberties through the automation, integration, and interconnection of many small, separate record-keeping systems, each of which alone may seem innocuous, even benevolent, and wholly justifiable. The whole report is public, and it specifically addresses insurance in this context: https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/personal-privacy-information-society https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/personal-privacy-information-soc...
  - a_imho 10y ago
    Let just call it mass surveillance
  - koolba 10y ago
    > This debate happens on HN again and again, but still: what privacy are you talking about in public space? Nobody has a problem with one person with a dashcam If I'm not that one person I'd have a problem with that. > why suddenly connecting these dashcams to a network that shares information is a problem? Switching from dash cams to police helps a bit. I think most people would be okay with one (or a handful) of police officers randomly walking through their neighborhood. Most locales would say it's a good thing. Now take that to the extreme and have an officer every 10 steps, looking around in every direction, and writing down everything that's happening. Still a good idea?
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      Now put license plate readers facing every direction on every police car and send that information to a database where it's stored forever. Now link it to every other license plate scanner across the country, and make searching through someone's trips as easy as using a TiVo, with complete history on their location. You don't have to imagine though, because they do this today: http://gothamist.com/2016/01/26/license_plate_readers_nypd.php http://gothamist.com/2016/01/26/license_plate_readers_nypd.p...
JulianMorrison 10y ago
Meh, all the purposes are real. It's a win-win. Get warned of idiots, collect data that will be useful to insurers (and probably to self driving cars too, I can imagine Google cars giving detected hotheads a wide berth). I can see one group of people having a legit beef with this though: car rental companies. One idiot behind the wheel, and their fleet car might as well go straight to scrap.
- ucaetano 10y ago
  "One idiot behind the wheel, and their fleet car might as well go straight to scrap." Unless, of course, they pay this nice fee to have their fleet cars whitelisted in the app, call it "bad driver protection money"!
  - patcheudor 10y ago
    The point being, once everyone has this thing in their car and everyone is being watched while they are driving, everyone will be marked as an idiot. Even the safest drivers make stupid moves. Even worse, by what metric is an idiot made? I drive aggressively, trying to find open space on the road whenever I can. To do this I speed and otherwise make abrupt lane changes. If I'm on a road trip and someone is following me too closely I'll speed up to 140 MPH to put some distance between us in short order. The thing is, I've never been in an accident and have literally raced cars on the Nurburgring in Germany without incident. I have a driving style which works for me and works for others around me as I'm not in accidents and I don't cause accidents. My mother-in-law on the other hand who drives five under everywhere and by most people's metrics is a safe driver has been in two accidents in the last five years. Neither of which were her fault of course (said with some sarcasm). All I can see this accomplishing is adding yet one more gadget app for people to be distracted by.
    - JulianMorrison 10y ago
      This sounds like you drive like an idiot. And so you should be marked as one, and are grumpy about it. Well, tough. Basically what you're doing is playing Russian roulette, and you keep "winning", well yeah, that happens, right up until it doesn't. Drive like a Google car. Stop being an idiot. Get a smiley face score.
a_imho 10y ago
It really sounds like a slapped on excuse for the next incarnation of the data collection biz. How would they generate revenue if not by selling the collected data to 3rd parties? Because imo that is the most straightforward option. Missing this bit entirely in the article is disingenuous and concerning. I'm not too sure about opaque code rating drivers either, though people might be ok with it.
- FilterSweep 10y ago
  agreed - it is a huge sell for insurance companies.
  - Justsignedup 10y ago
    They already do this. BUT maybe this will provide benefit for customers. And since its collecting ALL data, including visual and audio, this is a voluntary spy device. Imagine if the government demanded that data be handed over and starts using that to spy on people. IMO this is not a stretch of the imagination.
    - paavokoya 10y ago
      "imagine" .. governments (and corporations) around the world do this on a consistent basis

by kylec 10y ago

frgewut 10y ago

I can imagine a lot of applications for these types of systems: identifying undercover traffic police cars, finding whether someone is following you, identifying friend's cars (similar to FB's "Share your location") People would love such systems (and I'm afraid our privacy is gone for good).

golergka 10y ago
This debate happens on HN again and again, but still: what privacy are you talking about in public space? Nobody has a problem with one person with a dashcam — why suddenly connecting these dashcams to a network that shares information is a problem?
- corobo 10y ago
  > shares information Probably that bit
  - golergka 10y ago
    OK, so if I record a particular driver being an asshole on the street and then put this recording on Youtube as an individual, I would be wrong?
    - chopin 10y ago
      Yes
    - mcbrettsy 10y ago
      If you create a database of license plates (profiles) of all cars on the road along with their whereabouts and behavior at any given time, and then sell this information to the highest bidder.... you would be a bit wrong.
    - adrianN 10y ago
      In Germany at least you could get into serious trouble. Dashcams are a grey area in German law. The consensus seems to be currently that they're okay for personal use, but making the video public certainly puts you at risk of a lawsuit.
    - kabouseng 10y ago
      Absolutely, since it would amount to trial by media, where a person is found guilty / slandered as an asshole with no avenue to defend his position / state his case. What if he was driving like an asshole because he was speeding to the hospital or similar reasons?
      - chillingeffect 10y ago
        Exactly. The crux of prejudice is that it makes people form an opinion before they have facts a.k.a. context. A lot of things are not what they seem at first and because people respond to well to "Occam's Razor," they choose the laziest explanation and penalize people they don't know. A real-life example: my friend was dating a woman whose brother got in an accident. After receiving painkillers, he became addicted to them (an old story at this point). As he weened himself off of them, taking responsibility, my friend would drive him to get methadone a few times a week. A system that uses information from this one would label my friend an addict because he was so often seen driving to or parked at the rehab clinic. When in fact, my friend was a charitable, stand-up guy helping out a soon-to-be family member recover and become a stronger, productive member of society.
        seanp2k2 10y ago
        Just like credit scores. Their models aren't perfect, but the threshold for useful (for their benefit) is much lower, and profitable lower still. Since you're the product being sold and they're OK with many defects, and given that there are no financial consequences for you getting rolled up in a bad / inaccurate / predatory model, they don't care and aren't incentivized to fix it (and in fact in many cases are incentivized financially to keep it broken, since "hits" like that can be a selling point).
- peylix 10y ago
  Maybe it has to do with the fact that they're recording all license plates they see, regardless of what they're doing or if they did anything wrong. They will in fact know where you are and what your driving habits are. Apart from your driving behavior, this is surely also going to be something they're going to want to sell to various companies that would find this interesting.
- allanb 10y ago
  "No one has a problem with strangers seing you on the street, but suddenly when some guy follows you around with a camera it's a problem?" looking -> recording -> sharing These are all different things and our behaviour will and should change at each step.
  - noonespecial 10y ago
    More than that really. If every stranger who sees you on the street can (or worse, automatically does) instantly share that they saw you to a giant database that can then be easily searched it changes the act of "seeing". Now you can be virtually followed at any time by anyone anywhere who can use the database. No one can be drowned by a raindrop. A flood is another matter.
- JulianMorrison 10y ago
  Doing things at scale is different. Qualitatively, not just quantitatively. This has been the consistent lesson of big data and the modern internet.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Citing the U. S. Privacy Study Commission, The real danger is the gradual erosion of individual liberties through the automation, integration, and interconnection of many small, separate record-keeping systems, each of which alone may seem innocuous, even benevolent, and wholly justifiable. The whole report is public, and it specifically addresses insurance in this context: https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/personal-privacy-information-society https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/personal-privacy-information-soc...
- a_imho 10y ago
  Let just call it mass surveillance
- koolba 10y ago
  > This debate happens on HN again and again, but still: what privacy are you talking about in public space? Nobody has a problem with one person with a dashcam If I'm not that one person I'd have a problem with that. > why suddenly connecting these dashcams to a network that shares information is a problem? Switching from dash cams to police helps a bit. I think most people would be okay with one (or a handful) of police officers randomly walking through their neighborhood. Most locales would say it's a good thing. Now take that to the extreme and have an officer every 10 steps, looking around in every direction, and writing down everything that's happening. Still a good idea?
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    Now put license plate readers facing every direction on every police car and send that information to a database where it's stored forever. Now link it to every other license plate scanner across the country, and make searching through someone's trips as easy as using a TiVo, with complete history on their location. You don't have to imagine though, because they do this today: http://gothamist.com/2016/01/26/license_plate_readers_nypd.php http://gothamist.com/2016/01/26/license_plate_readers_nypd.p...

JulianMorrison 10y ago

Meh, all the purposes are real. It's a win-win. Get warned of idiots, collect data that will be useful to insurers (and probably to self driving cars too, I can imagine Google cars giving detected hotheads a wide berth). I can see one group of people having a legit beef with this though: car rental companies. One idiot behind the wheel, and their fleet car might as well go straight to scrap.

ucaetano 10y ago
"One idiot behind the wheel, and their fleet car might as well go straight to scrap." Unless, of course, they pay this nice fee to have their fleet cars whitelisted in the app, call it "bad driver protection money"!
- patcheudor 10y ago
  The point being, once everyone has this thing in their car and everyone is being watched while they are driving, everyone will be marked as an idiot. Even the safest drivers make stupid moves. Even worse, by what metric is an idiot made? I drive aggressively, trying to find open space on the road whenever I can. To do this I speed and otherwise make abrupt lane changes. If I'm on a road trip and someone is following me too closely I'll speed up to 140 MPH to put some distance between us in short order. The thing is, I've never been in an accident and have literally raced cars on the Nurburgring in Germany without incident. I have a driving style which works for me and works for others around me as I'm not in accidents and I don't cause accidents. My mother-in-law on the other hand who drives five under everywhere and by most people's metrics is a safe driver has been in two accidents in the last five years. Neither of which were her fault of course (said with some sarcasm). All I can see this accomplishing is adding yet one more gadget app for people to be distracted by.
  - JulianMorrison 10y ago
    This sounds like you drive like an idiot. And so you should be marked as one, and are grumpy about it. Well, tough. Basically what you're doing is playing Russian roulette, and you keep "winning", well yeah, that happens, right up until it doesn't. Drive like a Google car. Stop being an idiot. Get a smiley face score.

a_imho 10y ago

It really sounds like a slapped on excuse for the next incarnation of the data collection biz. How would they generate revenue if not by selling the collected data to 3rd parties? Because imo that is the most straightforward option. Missing this bit entirely in the article is disingenuous and concerning. I'm not too sure about opaque code rating drivers either, though people might be ok with it.

FilterSweep 10y ago
agreed - it is a huge sell for insurance companies.
- Justsignedup 10y ago
  They already do this. BUT maybe this will provide benefit for customers. And since its collecting ALL data, including visual and audio, this is a voluntary spy device. Imagine if the government demanded that data be handed over and starts using that to spy on people. IMO this is not a stretch of the imagination.
  - paavokoya 10y ago
    "imagine" .. governments (and corporations) around the world do this on a consistent basis