4 ms·

I don't doubt your personal experience. Statistically, your friends are outliers.

by jfoutz 10y ago

thr303808 10y ago
Do you have a source for these statistics? I know hundreds of people who have taken meth/speed during the weekend for years and are working, functioning people.
- defen 10y ago
  Street meth or pharmaceutical meth?
mcbits 10y ago
Where do you get statistics on occasional/light illegal drug users who have no contact with law enforcement or mental health researchers? People with jobs and families have a lot more to lose by admitting to the wrong person that they sniffed $50 of coke at a party last weekend than by admitting they chugged $50 of booze and almost choked on their own vomit (for example).
- eggy 10y ago
  Great points, and much more succinct than mine below. I think your point is exactly what I mean about romanticizing alcohol. People practically brag about how hungover they are, or how much they drank. Shared misery.
eggy 10y ago
Yes, maybe in one focus they are outliers, but the assumptions and parameters of the statistic should be qualified before dismissing the true harm alcohol causes. It's like the 'how would you like to die' game, slow or fast. A DUI can be fatal on your first drunk at any age. I know personally of a college roommates brother, who was a straight A student, and got drunk for the third time in his life, and wound up killing somebody with his car. He went away for manslaughter. I'd say the side-effect there was pretty 'oh boy' for him and the victim. Think of how many people you may have seen go into a car after a few drinks, and how many of them actually got pulled over or fined for DUI. A lot of people drive under the influence and fly below the radar of the statistics. I have acquaintances and business associates who have been doing it for years. Heroin and meth are stigmatized, and not a industrially-produced, government-controlled product like alcohol. They are almost always impure with other deleterious ingredients. Pure heroin used to be released on purpose in my old neighborhood in the 70s and 80s under somebody's 'brand' to hype sales of their 'product' for a few weeks even at the expense of a few overdoses. Alcohol is under government regulation per % of alcohol per type of beverage, health inspections, and additives. People have a casual drink at lunch, but you don't see somebody whip out a needle at a casual business lunch, so meth and heroin tend to be relegated to dark alleys, loners at home, parties, etc... The typical photo of a toothless, emaciated person comes from the side-effects of societal stigmatization, remaining in the shadow of crime, and less acceptance for that type of substance. There are plenty accounts of functional heroin addicts, and I knew/know a few personally. Their colleagues would never know. They eat right, go to work, and just use weekly and sometimes daily. There are 17 times as many alcoholics as meth addicts per a 2012 study [1]. And alcohol kills slowly. Even the healthiest person who has 3 or more drinks a day is putting mileage on their body, the liver in particular, not to mention the mental effects. Choose your poison - one's government and socially embraced, the other(s) are associated with criminals and 'addicts'. For a quick, non-academic feel of what I am trying to convey, watch and compare 'Requiem for A Dream' with any of the 'Hangover' movies. Can you find a meth/heroin movie like the 'Hangover' movies? A comedy that a broad range of people view and laugh at. Why not? The movie has what, 2 sequels already? [1] https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/methamphetamine/what-scope-methamphetamine-abuse-in-united-states https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/meth...
- misja111 10y ago
  During the 80's and the early 90's, the city of Zurich (Switzerland) had an area where the use of hard drugs was legal. Eventually, in '91, the area was closed because the consequences were disastrous. See for instance: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/extern/storytelling/needletrauma/chapter1/ http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/extern/storytelling/needletrauma... I'm not saying that the use of alcohol is harmless, and surely there will be people who can have an almost normal life while using hard drugs, but the stigma that hard drugs have is not coming out of nowhere.
- razakel 10y ago
  >Can you find a meth/heroin movie like the 'Hangover' movies? Well, there is Trainspotting, but that's a much darker form of comedy...
- soundwave106 10y ago
  You are not wrong in your assessment of some of the unfairness of the stigmatization, but alcohol does have some advantages that led to this position. A) It's "more than just a drug", it's a food. It's actually a food that can taste quite good to be honest. Many other things (especially synthetics) in contrast taste very nasty (usually very bitter). B) Alcohol has a pretty good dose-response curve. In contrast, dose-response issues are a problem with most synthetics and even injection oriented drugs like heroin -- it is usually "all at once" being difficult to dose any other way. As a result, it is more difficult to build up to a desired level of effect without going overboard. The stimulant of choice in most of the world is not meth, it is either coffee or tea. These have similar advantages that alcohol does (moreso actually since neither are as damaging or addictive). Consequently, coffee or tea is actually far more socially integrated, and less regulated than alcohol! I have heard of people using synthetic stimulants in a kind of similar way one would have a few beers at a party (eg as a pep up, to get through a cram or all nighter etc.), but usually when I hear about that it's something like Adderall (aka government regulated, mg clearly stated, etc. amphetamine). Using such off-label is the same sort of illegal in a way, but it seems to have far less social stigma. Meth has medical uses at lower dose, but stimulant abuse (which due to stuff like Adderall is probably the main case for meth) is all about the "euphoric" dose. That dose is less like someone is having a few beers at a party and more like going for an entire fifth of hard liquor in short order. At that level, damage occurs for any drug pretty fast. But certainly, there's some additional social / class issues that exaggerate the impact of many recreational chemicals in people's minds. Cannabis after all has a pretty good dose/response curve, and is not terribly offensive in taste, yet for a long time it had a huge stigma as well.
collyw 10y ago
My city has a reputation as having a heroin problem. I see a lot more alcoholics out on the street than heroin addicts.
OvidNaso 10y ago
Heroin is an opiate, and opiates do almost zero damage to the body. I know meth and heroin have culturally maintained their status as horrific amoungst young people despite the drug war's campaign of misinformation, and opiate addiction is a horrific thing, but clearly these drugs are not what you think they are.
- shabble 10y ago
  Whilst this is largely true, there are plenty of opportunities for harm from contaminated or adulterated drugs, blood-bourne disease from needle sharing, and all manner of peripheral damage from poor injection technique or inappropriate routes of administration. And, of course, the ever-present risk of overdose due to wildly varying purity. Of course, almost all of those things apply to other drugs when injected as well, but there is some evidence to suggest long-term use, even medically, can lead to Opioid Induced Hyperalgesia[1], which is definitely not harmless. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but I wouldn't paint quite such a rosy picture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid-induced_hyperalgesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid-induced_hyperalgesia
  - function_seven 10y ago
    Regarding your first paragraph, almost every hazard you mention is a consequence of prohibition, not an innate hazard of opiates themselves. Illegal drugs get adulterated due to black market actors looking to pad their margins. Needles get shared because they're not legal to buy OTC. Poor injection technique and inappropriate routes of administration occur (in part) due to the desire to hide drug use. Those two items would probably be lessened if addicts had the same access to education that diabetics do. And wildly varying purity is not something you find in drugs bought from a pharmacy, but is found from sellers operating in the shadows. Cigarettes and alcohol do not suffer from these things, because they're legal and regulated.
    - alsetmusic 10y ago
      > Regarding your first paragraph, almost every hazard you mention is a consequence of prohibition, not an innate hazard of opiates themselves. > Illegal drugs get adulterated due to black market actors looking to pad their margins. There was a group that offered free purity checks for MDMA (ecstasy) around 1999-2000 and they performed the service at raves. They announced that they would appear at a party I went to in the Midwest, but didn't operate because the police announced that the group would be arrested on site if they ran any tests. A warehouse of people took unknown substances without a basic safety net because the cops weren't willing to concede that this would have been a public service that might actually do some good. I stopped taking ecstasy about a year later because the increasing impurities made us feel awful the following day, but not before taking many doses that had who knows what in them. As such, while I am somewhat moderate in my stance on decrimianization, I also believe that the authorities are largely responsible for the mess that drug use can create.

I don't doubt your personal experience. Statistically, your friends are outliers.

by jfoutz 10y ago

I don't doubt your personal experience. Statistically, your friends are outliers.

Do you have a source for these statistics? I know hundreds of people who have taken meth/speed during the weekend for years and are working, functioning people.

defen 10y ago
Street meth or pharmaceutical meth?

mcbits 10y ago

Where do you get statistics on occasional/light illegal drug users who have no contact with law enforcement or mental health researchers? People with jobs and families have a lot more to lose by admitting to the wrong person that they sniffed $50 of coke at a party last weekend than by admitting they chugged $50 of booze and almost choked on their own vomit (for example).

eggy 10y ago
Great points, and much more succinct than mine below. I think your point is exactly what I mean about romanticizing alcohol. People practically brag about how hungover they are, or how much they drank. Shared misery.

eggy 10y ago

Yes, maybe in one focus they are outliers, but the assumptions and parameters of the statistic should be qualified before dismissing the true harm alcohol causes. It's like the 'how would you like to die' game, slow or fast. A DUI can be fatal on your first drunk at any age. I know personally of a college roommates brother, who was a straight A student, and got drunk for the third time in his life, and wound up killing somebody with his car. He went away for manslaughter. I'd say the side-effect there was pretty 'oh boy' for him and the victim. Think of how many people you may have seen go into a car after a few drinks, and how many of them actually got pulled over or fined for DUI. A lot of people drive under the influence and fly below the radar of the statistics. I have acquaintances and business associates who have been doing it for years. Heroin and meth are stigmatized, and not a industrially-produced, government-controlled product like alcohol. They are almost always impure with other deleterious ingredients. Pure heroin used to be released on purpose in my old neighborhood in the 70s and 80s under somebody's 'brand' to hype sales of their 'product' for a few weeks even at the expense of a few overdoses. Alcohol is under government regulation per % of alcohol per type of beverage, health inspections, and additives. People have a casual drink at lunch, but you don't see somebody whip out a needle at a casual business lunch, so meth and heroin tend to be relegated to dark alleys, loners at home, parties, etc... The typical photo of a toothless, emaciated person comes from the side-effects of societal stigmatization, remaining in the shadow of crime, and less acceptance for that type of substance. There are plenty accounts of functional heroin addicts, and I knew/know a few personally. Their colleagues would never know. They eat right, go to work, and just use weekly and sometimes daily. There are 17 times as many alcoholics as meth addicts per a 2012 study [1]. And alcohol kills slowly. Even the healthiest person who has 3 or more drinks a day is putting mileage on their body, the liver in particular, not to mention the mental effects. Choose your poison - one's government and socially embraced, the other(s) are associated with criminals and 'addicts'. For a quick, non-academic feel of what I am trying to convey, watch and compare 'Requiem for A Dream' with any of the 'Hangover' movies. Can you find a meth/heroin movie like the 'Hangover' movies? A comedy that a broad range of people view and laugh at. Why not? The movie has what, 2 sequels already? [1] https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/methamphetamine/what-scope-methamphetamine-abuse-in-united-states https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/meth...

misja111 10y ago
During the 80's and the early 90's, the city of Zurich (Switzerland) had an area where the use of hard drugs was legal. Eventually, in '91, the area was closed because the consequences were disastrous. See for instance: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/extern/storytelling/needletrauma/chapter1/ http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/extern/storytelling/needletrauma... I'm not saying that the use of alcohol is harmless, and surely there will be people who can have an almost normal life while using hard drugs, but the stigma that hard drugs have is not coming out of nowhere.
razakel 10y ago
>Can you find a meth/heroin movie like the 'Hangover' movies? Well, there is Trainspotting, but that's a much darker form of comedy...
soundwave106 10y ago
You are not wrong in your assessment of some of the unfairness of the stigmatization, but alcohol does have some advantages that led to this position. A) It's "more than just a drug", it's a food. It's actually a food that can taste quite good to be honest. Many other things (especially synthetics) in contrast taste very nasty (usually very bitter). B) Alcohol has a pretty good dose-response curve. In contrast, dose-response issues are a problem with most synthetics and even injection oriented drugs like heroin -- it is usually "all at once" being difficult to dose any other way. As a result, it is more difficult to build up to a desired level of effect without going overboard. The stimulant of choice in most of the world is not meth, it is either coffee or tea. These have similar advantages that alcohol does (moreso actually since neither are as damaging or addictive). Consequently, coffee or tea is actually far more socially integrated, and less regulated than alcohol! I have heard of people using synthetic stimulants in a kind of similar way one would have a few beers at a party (eg as a pep up, to get through a cram or all nighter etc.), but usually when I hear about that it's something like Adderall (aka government regulated, mg clearly stated, etc. amphetamine). Using such off-label is the same sort of illegal in a way, but it seems to have far less social stigma. Meth has medical uses at lower dose, but stimulant abuse (which due to stuff like Adderall is probably the main case for meth) is all about the "euphoric" dose. That dose is less like someone is having a few beers at a party and more like going for an entire fifth of hard liquor in short order. At that level, damage occurs for any drug pretty fast. But certainly, there's some additional social / class issues that exaggerate the impact of many recreational chemicals in people's minds. Cannabis after all has a pretty good dose/response curve, and is not terribly offensive in taste, yet for a long time it had a huge stigma as well.

collyw 10y ago

My city has a reputation as having a heroin problem. I see a lot more alcoholics out on the street than heroin addicts.

OvidNaso 10y ago

Heroin is an opiate, and opiates do almost zero damage to the body. I know meth and heroin have culturally maintained their status as horrific amoungst young people despite the drug war's campaign of misinformation, and opiate addiction is a horrific thing, but clearly these drugs are not what you think they are.

shabble 10y ago
Whilst this is largely true, there are plenty of opportunities for harm from contaminated or adulterated drugs, blood-bourne disease from needle sharing, and all manner of peripheral damage from poor injection technique or inappropriate routes of administration. And, of course, the ever-present risk of overdose due to wildly varying purity. Of course, almost all of those things apply to other drugs when injected as well, but there is some evidence to suggest long-term use, even medically, can lead to Opioid Induced Hyperalgesia[1], which is definitely not harmless. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but I wouldn't paint quite such a rosy picture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid-induced_hyperalgesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid-induced_hyperalgesia
- function_seven 10y ago
  Regarding your first paragraph, almost every hazard you mention is a consequence of prohibition, not an innate hazard of opiates themselves. Illegal drugs get adulterated due to black market actors looking to pad their margins. Needles get shared because they're not legal to buy OTC. Poor injection technique and inappropriate routes of administration occur (in part) due to the desire to hide drug use. Those two items would probably be lessened if addicts had the same access to education that diabetics do. And wildly varying purity is not something you find in drugs bought from a pharmacy, but is found from sellers operating in the shadows. Cigarettes and alcohol do not suffer from these things, because they're legal and regulated.
  - alsetmusic 10y ago
    > Regarding your first paragraph, almost every hazard you mention is a consequence of prohibition, not an innate hazard of opiates themselves. > Illegal drugs get adulterated due to black market actors looking to pad their margins. There was a group that offered free purity checks for MDMA (ecstasy) around 1999-2000 and they performed the service at raves. They announced that they would appear at a party I went to in the Midwest, but didn't operate because the police announced that the group would be arrested on site if they ran any tests. A warehouse of people took unknown substances without a basic safety net because the cops weren't willing to concede that this would have been a public service that might actually do some good. I stopped taking ecstasy about a year later because the increasing impurities made us feel awful the following day, but not before taking many doses that had who knows what in them. As such, while I am somewhat moderate in my stance on decrimianization, I also believe that the authorities are largely responsible for the mess that drug use can create.